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Thread: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

  1. #11

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    WE BELIEVE in water baptism by immersion according to the Scriptures for all true believers; being buried into the death of Yahshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) for the remission of our sins and in the likeness of His resurrection being raised up into the newness of life (Rom. 6:3-6). Baptism being ordained of God a testimony to the New Covenant as circumcision was under the Old Covenant (Col 2:11-13).

    http://www.kingidentity.com/doctrine.htm

  2. #12
    Pastor Bill
    Guest

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obadiah 1:18 View Post
    The Bible says to repent and be baptised. This means that a child should not be baptised unless it is old enough and possesses enough knowledge of Scripture to know what repentance is all about, since repentance requires a conscious decision from the child to turn from its ways and embrace the ways of Yahweh.
    The kid can be rebaptized when they are older if they feel the first one didn't cover it. I'm not saying that baptizing very young children should be standard practice, just that if I had a request to perform one I would probably do it if the parents were sincere about raising the child right. This also deals with any concerns about the soul of unbaptized children who are very young.

  3. #13
    Obadiah 1:18
    Guest

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Bill View Post
    The kid can be rebaptized when they are older if they feel the first one didn't cover it. I'm not saying that baptizing very young children should be standard practice, just that if I had a request to perform one I would probably do it if the parents were sincere about raising the child right. This also deals with any concerns about the soul of unbaptized children who are very young.
    First Peter 3:21 explains that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is a sign, a public demonstration, of our -- not somebody else's (well-meaning parents included) -- willingness to obey Yahweh. Baptizing somebody who has not made a conscious decision to do this defeats the whole purpose of baptism and, I believe, renders it useless.

    Yahweh is a loving, merciful God. He is not going to cast a deceased white infant or a white child into outer darkness because he or she was too young to be baptized.

  4. #14
    Likes Ice Cream Gnaghi's Avatar
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    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    It seems most of the single seedliners are anti-baptism.

    http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/Baptism.htm
    http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/Baptism2.htm

    There's no "pagan trappings" in baptism. Pagans don't baptize!

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi83 View Post
    Should baptism be full immersion in water or a few sprinkles of water?
    G907
    βαπτίζω
    baptizō
    bap-tid'-zo
    From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


    The word baptism means "to make whelmed or fully wet." I'm not sure about children, but feel all Christian adults should be baptized by full immersion in water. Yahsua certainly was and we're no greater than Him.
    Gna!

  5. #15
    Pastor Bill
    Guest

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    Actually I have another question regarding baptism. If a person is baptized as a Baptist, Methodist, etc after converting and then learns the truth of CI do they need to be rebaptized as CI? Personally I say no, as long as their conversion was done from a true willingness to serve YHWH. When they came to CI they simply started to embrace the true doctrine and as long as their original baptism was done in the spirit of true repentance it holds as valid.

  6. #16

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    I agree with you. Awakening to truth is a process that takes time and is refined over time. I had wondered about my baptism. I was baptized by some Scriptures for America pastors who I no longer agree with on many issues. However, they aren't the ones who give the blessings of baptism. The blessings come from the Holy Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Bill View Post
    Actually I have another question regarding baptism. If a person is baptized as a Baptist, Methodist, etc after converting and then learns the truth of CI do they need to be rebaptized as CI? Personally I say no, as long as their conversion was done from a true willingness to serve YHWH. When they came to CI they simply started to embrace the true doctrine and as long as their original baptism was done in the spirit of true repentance it holds as valid.

  7. #17

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    Not all. Ted Weiland and Pete Peters are single seedliners but both are very pro baptism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaghi View Post
    It seems most of the single seedliners are anti-baptism.

    http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/Baptism.htm
    http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/Baptism2.htm

    There's no "pagan trappings" in baptism. Pagans don't baptize!



    G907
    βαπτίζω
    baptizō
    bap-tid'-zo
    From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


    The word baptism means "to make whelmed or fully wet." I'm not sure about children, but feel all Christian adults should be baptized by full immersion in water. Yahsua certainly was and we're no greater than Him.

  8. #18
    Obadiah 1:18
    Guest

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Bill View Post
    Actually I have another question regarding baptism. If a person is baptized as a Baptist, Methodist, etc after converting and then learns the truth of CI do they need to be rebaptized as CI? Personally I say no, as long as their conversion was done from a true willingness to serve YHWH. When they came to CI they simply started to embrace the true doctrine and as long as their original baptism was done in the spirit of true repentance it holds as valid.
    I go along with that. I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost in a Pentecostal church. I don't see any need to be baptized again. Obedience to Yahweh's word, Acts 2:38 in particular, is obedience no matter what church does the baptizing.

    Look at this way, if you were married in a Catholic church, would converting to Christian Identity render your marriage null and void? Of course not.

  9. #19

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    Interestingly, all infants are fully baptized before they even leave the womb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaghi View Post
    It seems most of the single seedliners are anti-baptism.

    http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/Baptism.htm
    http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/Baptism2.htm

    There's no "pagan trappings" in baptism. Pagans don't baptize!



    G907
    βαπτίζω
    baptizō
    bap-tid'-zo
    From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


    The word baptism means "to make whelmed or fully wet." I'm not sure about children, but feel all Christian adults should be baptized by full immersion in water. Yahsua certainly was and we're no greater than Him.

  10. #20

    Re: Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

    Here's an Orthodox stance on the subject;

    THE ANCIENT TYPIKON
    For An Elephant Funeral
    (Slightly edited from "The Form of Holy Baptism")
    by Metropolitan Ephraim of Boston

    And John was also baptizing in Ӕnon near to Salim, because there was much water there."
    (John 3:23)

    Immersion By Immersion

    In speaking about Baptism, we need to know the exact meaning of the word. This is especially important when we are discussing the correct form of Baptism.

    Baptism is a Greek word, and so we have to turn to the Greeks to find out what they meant by this word. As the saying goes, "The Greeks have a word for it." (Here, alas, the bitter truth must be confessed: sometimes, they don't have a word for it. For example, there is no Greek word for "toe." What we call "toes" are known in Greek as "the fingers of the foot," or maybe "little fingers." So, if you look carefully [in a Greek lexicon], you will see that Greeks don't have toes.)

    They did have a word for "baptism," however, and that word is bάptisma; they had a verb too: baptίzein — "to baptize." What did the ancient Greeks mean when they called something "baptized"? Hippocrates used the word to refer to something that was drenched. Eubulus the comedian used the word in reference to drunkards who were "soaked in wine." Plato used the term to describe debtors who were "over their head in debt." And in regard to someone who was being interrogated, he used it to mean "he was drowned with questions; he was getting into deep water." And finally, the historian Polybius refers to ships that were "baptized" during a sea battle, that is, they had been sunk right down to the bottom.

    At the risk of repeating a good story to an audience that may already have heard it, a few years ago a Roman Catholic priest came by our monastery [before I had been made a bishop], and I happened to be on telephone duty. During our talk he asked, "Is it true that you Orthodox baptize by immersion?" I told him, "Well, you must know that 'baptism' is a Greek word that means 'immersion.' So, what you're really asking me is if we immerse by immersion, and the answer to that is: 'Yes!'"

    But why is immersion so important? Because it is a figure and symbol of Christ's death and burial. As we see in Saint Paul's epistle to the Romans:

    Know ye not that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore, we are buried with Him by baptism into death, so that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection.
    Romans 6:3-5

    In one of his homilies, Saint John Chrysostom notes that other people fish by pulling the fish out of the water, and they die; whereas we Christians fish by throwing the fish into the water, and they come to life! (On the Holy Pascha, Migne, PG 50, 437).

    The complete immersion or submersion of a person in Baptism is the figure of the death of the old man, and his emergence from the water as one reborn is a figure of renewal and the consecration of a new life in the figure of the Resurrection. We do not bury people by sprinkling a handful of earth over their heads, or by shaking a little shovel full of dirt over them. No, we bury them completely, deep in the earth. Immersion, that is, Baptism, is one thing and sprinkling is another. They are not the same, and that is why the Holy Scriptures make a point of telling us that Saint John the Forerunner was baptizing at Ӕnon near Salim, "because there was much water there." Indeed, why should Saint John the Baptist, or our Saviour, take the trouble to go all the way down to the Jordan River if any little washbasin elsewhere would have served the same purpose?

    Assuredly, just as sprinkling a little earth over the head of a dead man does not count as burial, even so does sprinkling a little water over one's head not amount to Baptism, neither does it serve as a symbol of the death of our old self, nor even as a "likeness" of the death and burial of our Saviour.

    The Elephant Typikon

    Even elephants have more sense in this particular regard.

    Have any of you ever been to an elephant funeral? Now, there's a funeral for you! Their time-honored observances in this matter are certainly most impressive. First of all, the prescribed Typikon calls for the herd to begin a somber procession in a circle around the body of the newly-departed, accompanied by a lot of mournful trumpeting and the solemn stomping of the feet. Then the bereaved elephants go off in different directions and break leafy branches off the trees. They carry these back in their trunks and use them to bury the carcass of the deceased. Note that they don't just sprinkle a few leaves or throw a couple of roses over the body. No indeed. They completely bury it under the branches. So, in this case at least, even the elephants have more sense than some people do. Instinctively, the wise elephant knows that when one is dead, one is dead and buried, not dead and sprinkled.

    Returning to our own, too often less circumspect species, we observe that all the ancient authorities, including the Holy Scriptures, bear witness to the Orthodox tradition of immersion.

    Here is what some ancient canons say about Holy Baptism:

    46th Apostolic Canon
    We ordain that a bishop or presbyter who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Beliar, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

    47th Apostolic Canon
    Let a bishop or presbyter who shall baptize again one who has rightly received Baptism, or who shall not baptize one who has been polluted by the ungodly, be deposed, as despising the Cross and death of the Lord, and not making a distinction between the true priests and the false.

    68th Apostolic Canon
    If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon shall receive from anyone a second ordination, let both the ordained and the ordainer be deposed, unless indeed it be proved that he had his ordination from heretics; for those who have been baptized or ordained by such persons cannot be either of the faithful or of the clergy.

    Canon I of the Local Council of Carthage
    That those baptized by heretics shall be rebaptized to be admitted to the Church.

    Canon 84 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council
    Following the canonical institutions of the Fathers, we order that whoever does not know nor can prove by documents that he has been baptized, he must without any hesitation be baptized.

    In Church History, of course, we know of many instances that call for the discreet use of economia in receiving people into the Church.

    Two Coins In The Fountain

    But, since the correct faith is so important, what did many early Christians believe about the "baptism" of the non-Orthodox?

    On December seventh, we celebrate the memory of a certain Orthodox woman of Rome. Her name is unknown to us, but we must surely call her blessed. In the year 474, the Arians raised up a terrible persecution against the Orthodox Catholic Christians. Sunilda, the wife of the Arian ruler of Rome, took it upon herself to attempt to force one Orthodox woman to accept the baptism of the Arians. The woman would not consent, so the Arians seized her, took her by force to one of their churches, and immersed her into the water in the presence of the Arian bishop.

    As she came out of the water, she turned to her handmaid who was holding a purse. She took two coins out of the purse, handed them to the Arian bishop, and said to him, "Thanks for the bath."

    This so enraged the Arians, they dragged her out of their temple, tied her to a post, and burned her alive.

    In her, truly, are fulfilled the words of King David the Prophet: "We went through fire and water, and Thou didst bring us out into refreshment" (Psalm 65:12).

    By her intercessions, and of those of all the Saints, may we be counted worthy of the Heavenly Kingdom. Amen.

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