A Woman's Role

[Obadiah 1:18]

Jesus received ministry from women and sent women out to declare the good news during His ministry on earth. His ways have not changed with the passing of two thousand years. Since Jesus doesn’t have a problem receiving from women nor with women preaching the truth, neither should we.

I don't have a problem with women preaching the truth, provided they're not preaching a sermon in church. According to Scripture, women are not to have authority over men. If a woman is preaching in church, she is exercising the kind of authority that God has not given her. It doesn't matter whether she's more articulate and intelligent and has greater knowledge of the Scriptures than the men to whom she's preaching, for God has commanded men, not women, to be the leaders in church and in the home, and there is no getting around that.

1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[stardust]

In the church there is a place for everyone who is of the remnant of Israel and is purified and baptized=male and female, young and old. Take these verses for example:

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I, as a woman always want to help with the ministry but am afraid to cross any barriers which are not permittable. . . and I think these verses from Malachi are helpful because it shows us women some of the things we can do with our faith and love;

Malachi= thanks for this information:

This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in the work of Yahweh.
The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women prophets:

Miriam the sister of Moses. (Exodus 15:20)

Deborah. (Judges 4-5)

Huldah the wife of Shallum. (2 Kings 22:14)

The four daughters of Philip the evangelist. (Acts 21:8-9)

These women obviously used the gift of prophecy to benefit the church; and their prophetic messages were listened to by all who cared to hear the Word of God spoken through them.
But they did not preach nor teach in the temple or in the official Sabbath assemblies. Their prophetic messages were delivered outside the official church gatherings.
Things "Married" Women can do in the Church:
Teaching the young children on the Sabbath
Teaching younger women how to bring up their families
Providing music in church services (choir, keyboard, piano, violin etc.)
Senior secretarial work in the UCOY office.
Reading incoming mail and despatching literature: setting aside letters for personal answers. These letters are answered by the elders (men).
Organising the catering arrangements at all the Feasts.

In contrast we know also what women are not to be and what men are not to be so neither of these types have a place in the church:

Deu 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

We must learn to flee from evil and put hell and damnation far from us, this is one of the ways they used to do it, also take note that we do not pray for the evil nor have compassion upon them:

Eze 23:47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
Eze 23:48 Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.
Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Look around at the world today and how America, the great whore of Babylon, smiles at her adultery and fornication and promotes all manner of sin and wickedness and revels in idolatry. Think of the type of society the poor innocent children are taught to look up to and accept as a role model for civilization. . . the modern material girl Madonna vs. the blessed virgin Madonna are certainly of clashing opposing spiritual forces, it is called darkness vs. light! Open your eyes to all that is around you and ask God how you can battle for his side. . . when the true sheep band together, he will lead us.

Another note:
Jezebel painted her face just before her death.
I read in the lost books that make up or face painting was taught by the angels- just like many other things, how to grind wheat, how to make wine=taught by angels. I concur that one can listen to a fallen angel or an everlasting angel. The cartoons depicting the angel/devil symptoms are worthy of contemplation because the original sin is just like the sin of today. If you fall for the the words of the father of lies, the serpent who was in the garden, you will be turning your back on God. But if you hearken unto God you will inherit paradise. Think of all the times angels appeared to our forefathers with tidings of joy or woe*

One definition of angel=ang'-el-os
especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

If you are a woman, your best chance at serving God is to get married, raise your children in God’s Holy Scriptures and pray without ceasing. In this way you can seek the salvation of God’s holy seed and be saved in childbearing if you raise them in the correct spirit. You may choose to remain a chaste virgin unto Christ so that you will not have to concern yourself with the natural necessities of man and worldly wares but then again when you are living in the end times and godly men need help meets to withstand the evils of this wicked generation, well , I think naturually you may feel called to appeal the Lord for this type of wedded, holy, matrimonial service. Beware of the dangers of losing sight of your goals, because Satan is always on task at working to destroy your home.

Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

Wether you are a man or a woman, DO THIS:

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

And remember:

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


In Christian love,

Stardust~*Mrs. Visser*

[malachi83]

I don't have a problem with women preaching the truth, provided they're not preaching a sermon in church. According to Scripture, women are not to have authority over men. If a woman is preaching in church, she is exercising the kind of authority that God has not given her. It doesn't matter whether she's more articulate and intelligent and has greater knowledge of the Scriptures than the men to whom she's preaching, for God has commanded men, not women, to be the leaders in church and in the home, and there is no getting around that.

1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I feel the same way...

[DunaMiss]

Scripture requires us to uphold the doctrines of Jesus above all other opinions, whether they be our own or those of another. Regardless of how loving, esteemed, or godly a particular Christian may be, we must always judge their doctrines according to those of Jesus. The doctrines, or teachings, of Jesus are those sayings that He spoke, the commands He gave, and the things He did. Jesus’ doctrines were always in agreement with those of His Father’s. He never spoke out of line with scripture or did anything that wasn’t pleasing to His Father.

Jesus answered them, and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me.” (John 7:17)

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. …Therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me. (John 12:49-50)

And He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him. (John 8:29)

The Father said to Moses, “I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.” (Deuteronomy 18:18)

For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything He tells you." (Acts 3:22)

While He yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him.” (Matthew 17:5)

Here is My servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will proclaim justice to the nations. (Matthew 12:18)

In regards to the question of women speaking in assemblies, we must determine if Paul was upholding the doctrines of Jesus when he wrote the following sayings in his first letter to the Corinthians:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

There is not one scripture, from Genesis to Malachi, recording a law, statute, ordinance, or judgment for women to keep silent in the assemblies. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms silences women. Jesus never silenced women. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms declares it a shame for women to speak in the assembly. Jesus never taught that it was a shame for women to speak anywhere.

On the other hand, the tradition of the elders—the “law” of the Talmud—silences women. The tradition of the elders designates the speech of women as shameful.

"A woman's voice is prohibited because it is sexually provocative" (Talmud, Berachot 24a).

"It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men" (Talmud, Tractate Kiddushin)

"The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness" (Talmud, Berachot Kiddushin)

"Women are sexually seductive, mentally inferior, socially embarrassing, and spiritually separated from the law of Moses; therefore, let them be silent" (summary of Talmudic sayings).

See http://www.his-kingdom.net/women/new...r14-34-36.html

Adam Clarke (1762-1832) in his Bible commentary stated, “Women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies or even to ask questions," according to Jewish ordinances. "The rabbis taught that 'a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.'" He referenced the “sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, ‘Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.’”

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders?” …He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? …Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matthew 15:1-3, 6-9)

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men. …All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition, …making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do. (Mark 7:8-9, 13)

Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Matthew 16:12)

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house…. (2 John 1:9-10)

[Obadiah 1:18]

There is not one scripture, from Genesis to Malachi, recording a law, statute, ordinance, or judgment for women to keep silent in the assemblies. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms silences women. Jesus never silenced women. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms declares it a shame for women to speak in the assembly. Jesus never taught that it was a shame for women to speak anywhere.

You could use the same argument to say that it's all right for children to preach in a church setting. The key word here isn't silence it's authority. God has not given women the authority to preach to men in church. This goes beyond the problem that Paul was addressing in 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Which is why in verses 13-14 he adds that God formed Adam before Eve, giving Adam preeminence authority-wise over her, and that it was Eve, not Adam, who was deceived in the Garden of Eden. This is a vital spiritual point that cannot be dismissed on the grounds that Paul was only addressing a problem in the church, which was unique to that particular period in history, since what happened in the Garden of Eden pertains to the church today, as it did almost 2000 years ago.

Isaiah 3:12
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

[DunaMiss]

...This is a vital spiritual point that cannot be dismissed on the grounds that Paul was only addressing a problem in the church, which was unique to that particular period in history...

The leaven of the pharisees was not just a problem in the early church, unique to that particular period of history. Jesus warned us to beware of the doctrine of the pharisees, which is as much a problem for us today as it was in His day. The leaven has spread through the minds and hearts of the majority of Christians.

Many sincere believers today elevate the teachings of those they consider to be leaders of the church (both past and present) over the teachings of Jesus. Their religious ideas are based on the teachings of those who do not uphold the doctrines of Jesus.

Jesus issued warning after warning about this. He cautioned His followers to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Why? Because they were drooling and ready to devour. Their doctrines are still eating away at the fold today.

Jesus said, “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.” (John 5:23)

How can you say, “We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us”? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. (Jeremiah 8:8)

Yes, they are greedy dogs which never have enough. And they are shepherds who cannot understand; they all look to their own way, every one for his own gain, from his own territory. (Isaiah 56:11)

[Obadiah 1:18]

All of the twelve apostles Christ handpicked were men. All of the early church leaders were men. It was Peter, not Mary Magdalene, who Christ told to feed the flock. There is nothing Christ said or did that countermands Paul's counsel to Timothy regarding women in the church. Therefore the argument that forbidding women to preach to men in church is unscriptural and somehow pharisaical is not a valid one.

[DunaMiss]

Jesus appeared after His resurrection first to a woman and commanded her to go and declare the good news to the assembly of His disciples.

Jesus saith unto her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.’” Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things unto her. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (John 20:17-19)

This is one very specific example of Jesus commissioning a woman to preach a vital message to a gathering of men (men only, or men and women both, the bible doesn't specify). I can only assume that they weren't gathered in a building called a "church" with a pulpit, however. If Jesus had wanted to set a precedent regarding women never preaching to men, He certainly could have chosen the world-changing moment of His resurrection to make such a statement. Yet we see Him affirming no such doctrines here.

[Obadiah 1:18]

This is one very specific example of Jesus commissioning a woman to preach a vital message to a gathering of men (men only, or men and women both, the bible doesn't specify). I can only assume that they weren't gathered in a building called a "church" with a pulpit, however. If Jesus had wanted to set a precedent regarding women never preaching to men, He certainly could have chosen the world-changing moment of His resurrection to make such a statement. Yet we see Him affirming no such doctrines here.

Jesus wasn't commissioning her to preach to men, he was merely instructing her to report what she had seen to His followers. If, as you assume, that this account is proof positive that Christ had anointed Mary to preach to men in church, why doesn't the Scripture make this much clearer? After all, her appointment to preach to men would have been an epochal moment in church history. Yet nowhere in the Bible do we read that Christ placed Mary in a position of leadership. The Bible is very clear about the leadership roles of men such as Peter and Paul, so why isn't it equally clear about Mary's role?

[DunaMiss]

Jesus wasn't commissioning her (Mary) to preach to men, he was merely instructing her to report what she had seen to His followers.

Reporting what you have seen is often called “witnessing” and is included in preaching and teaching.

If, as you assume, that this account is proof positive that Christ had anointed Mary to preach to men in church, why doesn't the Scripture make this much clearer? After all, her appointment to preach to men would have been an epochal moment in church history. Yet nowhere in the Bible do we read that Christ placed Mary in a position of leadership.

Jesus didn’t have to establish a reversal for a precedent that was never set in scripture. Women were never commanded by Yahweh to be silent, to not preach, or to not speak in an assembly that includes men. That was a new rule for church conduct that Paul started.

The Bible is very clear about the leadership roles of men such as Peter and Paul...

When Jesus told Peter to feed the sheep, He was restoring Peter from a fallen, backslidden state and reestablishing the commission He had given to him and all the rest of His disciples (the twelve, the seventy, the one hundred and twenty, etc.) to serve His people.

Jesus never mentioned Paul.

As far as leadership roles, Jesus said:

But you, do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12)

Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:42-45)

...so why isn't it equally clear about Mary's role?

Jesus didn’t need to outline each individual disciple’s role. Mary’s role is like that of any other disciple of Jesus who would take up their cross and follow Him: obey the commands of Jesus, serve His people, preach the gospel, etc.