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Thread: Is America Mystery Babylon?

  1. #1

    Is America Mystery Babylon?

    #1. The Jewish Population Issue:
    Jeremiah 50:8, 25; Jeremiah 51: 6, 45; Isaiah 48:20 and also Revelation 18:4.
    These are all references to Jewish people living in this future "Mystery Babylon" in the ancient Babylon, from the 6th Century BC till well into the early Church Age, the majority of the Jewish population lived in ancient Babylon. It was the home to most of the world’s Jews even in the time of Christ. Today, the largest population of Jewish people is found in the United States. The next two nations combined, Israel (home to the 2nd largest Jewish population) and Russia (home to the 3rd largest Jewish population) do not equal the population of Jewish people living in America. Iraq on the other hand has only a relative handful of Jews living within its borders. Some estimate the Jewish population in Iraq at perhaps 10,000. That is not very many people, particularly in regards to the population of most other nations hosting the Jewish remnant. This character trait of being the lead host for Jewry is not indicative that Iraq today fulfills the prophecies of "mystery Babylon." Therefore, this trait alone disqualifies the theory of "Iraq = Mystery" Babylon.

    #2. The chief city of Mystery Babylon is a "DEEPWATER PORT CITY"!!!
    Revelation 18: 17-19. This passage tells us that merchant ships are standing off the shoreline of Babylon. These ships have either just unloaded in the port city of Mystery Babylon, or are waiting to dock when the fiery judgment hits. These ship captains, crew and passengers are witnesses to the destruction. Question: Why would these folks be standing on deck of merchant ships unless there were port facilities in this city? Answer: The city is a port city. In this day and age, especially by virtue of the list of commodities that are traded in "Mystery Babylon," (see Revelation 18:11-13) there must be at least one deepwater port in the nation of Mystery Babylon. One thing can be noted regard to modern day port facilities. In order for Babylon to have the kind of merchandise (described in Revelation 18:11-13) coming by ships then those ships must be going to and from a DEEPWATER SEA- PORT CITY. Why? For today's ships to bring such merchandise requires them to be large commercial freighters with DEEP drawing drafts. These ships require deep-water port facilities to dock and load/unload because their hulls are so deep. They are BIG ships. Now here is the problem for the Iraq=Babylon theorists: Iraq has no deepwater seaport!!! That's right, there is no DEEPWater port facility in all of Iraq. During GulfWar2, there were and still are small freighters coming into the little town harbor of Basra. In a recent United States CIA publication on Iraq, the CIA noted that a significant problem with sea transport was the lack of deepwater shipping facilities. Harbor draft measurements up the mouth of the Euphrates river to Basra are around the eight foot (that's 8 feet) level. That makes it hard to even get big fishing boats into the harbor. At best, draft levels further out only range to less than 20 feet.
    There is no way that the typical international commercial freighters could dock in Basra or anywhere else in Iraq's very short shoreline because they would easily run aground and become stuck in the shallow, muddy waters. Only small ships carrying small quantities of goods can dock in Basra. Those large ore-carrying freighters, or big cargo container ships carrying cars or trucks are simply too big to be able to dock at the shallow harbor of Basra or any other little harbor on Iraq's shoreline. Those super-large oil tankers can not get near to the small snippet of coastline that Iraq has because it is so shallow. The oil from Iraq is therefore either piped to Jordan, or is piped out for miles into the Persian Gulf into the deeper waters where these oil tankers won’t run aground.
    But that is not all that shoots the Literalists balloon out from underneath them on this issue of deepwater port facilities.
    According to the "Literalists," Ancient Babylon, we are told must be the only literal interpretation. However, ancient Babylon is 400+ miles from the Persian Gulf and over 350 miles from Basra. The LITERAL description found in Revelation 18: 17-19 shows these huge ships will be within visual distance of the city skyline and will witness her destruction up close and personal. Being 400 miles away is just a bit too far to be able to see any kind of destruction of a city, even if it were from nuclear bombs. The curvature of the earth is just a bit too much at 400 miles even with flat terrain to be able to see what has transpired that far away. Now although this is in itself a fatal flaw exposed in the "Iraq = Mystery Babylon" theory it is just one of many theoretical flaws. One thing it really points to though is how NOT Literal is the concept that Iraq is Mystery Babylon.

    #3. It is the KEY Commercial Nation and Engine of Wealth for the World’s Economy
    Isaiah 47:15. Revelation 17:2; Revelation 18: 3, 9, 11-13, 15, 16, 17-19, 22, 23, & 19:2. In these passages we see just what relationship Babylon enjoys with the rest of the world. Here she is clearly the critical factor in the world economy. When she goes down in flames…what is the lament? "What was like unto this mega city? Who will buy our goods now that she is gone"? The answer is that no one will be able to buy the products of the world’s merchants. What does this tell us??? It should be a clear warning indicator that whoever this nation is… the rest of the world depends on her for buying their merchandise. With her destruction, there is no one left to buy these goods. That tells us just how vital this nation is and it means this nation is the engine of wealth for the world. Now, Iraq does NOT now nor can it fit that role…at least in the next 30 years, unless the rest of the world is wiped out first. Once again, we see a character trait that Iraq does not exemplify in anyway, shape or form.

    #4-#21. It is the principal Commodities Trading Center
    These are all commodities in a list that are the chief trading products as cited in Rev 18:11-13, for which the merchants and sailors later lament that no one will buy these products anymore. This includes Gold, Silver and Copper. Now on these items alone… there is more Gold traded in New York City on the COMEX in one day than in all the rest of the world combined !!! The same is true for Silver and Copper and Crude Oil. In fact, the volume of trade is so heavy that in one day alone there is more gold traded than had been traded in all of human history up until 1974 when gold trading was allowed on a futures contractual basis. That is how massive and dominant the USA and NYC are in the commodities trading markets. Revelation 18: 12 & 13, lists many other commodities as well, including grains and livestock. Now, Chicago is the Host City for such record trading in that arena. It too is a port city on as it sits on Lake Michigan. The fact of the matter: Iraq has no economic power… it has no ability to be the economic engine of wealth for the whole world. If Iraq vanished from the face of the earth today it would not even cause a ripple in the world’s economy.
    However, if the USA vanished today it would decimate the world’s economy and bankrupt every nation on earth, instantly. In essence, there would be no one left to buy the foreigner’s goods. That’s because no one else wants to import goods. They only want to export not import. The USA is the big promoter of international trade and promotes imports plus free trade. Iraq plays no such role in the world economy. As a nation, Iraq is simply too poor.

    #22. A Leading center of imports and consumption
    Revelation 18: 11, 17-19. These passages tell us the economic picture of this nation. Note that this nation is not only involved in the trade of these products, but that she is also the leading importer… because when she is destroyed…"no one buys"… their merchandise anymore. The folks doing the lamenting are the international merchants who export goods to this mystery Babylon. Therefore, she is the leading import nation. She is therefore, by virtue of her importer status, the chief consuming nation. This also is not a description of Iraq. Iraq has no such status in the world today, tomorrow or the foreseeable future! It is this aspect which negates the Iraq theory…because the contention is that we are living in the "last days" and the fulfillment of the end-times prophecies are at hand. IF this is true, and I assert that it indeed is true, then how can Iraq match these character traits in so short a span of time??? Answer: she can’t. Iraq is not the nation being described. There is only one nation that fits these traits, and more. That nation is the United States of America.

    #23. She is also a manufacturing nation
    Revelation 18: 22. This passage tells us manufacturing is no longer found in her after the judgment. This tells us that she was a manufacturing nation prior to her destruction. Iraq is not a nation noted for manufacturing.

    #24. Center for Merchandising and Marketing
    Revelation 18: 3, 23; 19:2. Her merchants were the mega-merchants of the earth. This again does not fit the character traits of Iraq. It does, however, fit the picture of America.

    #25. Known as the World’s "policeman"
    Jeremiah 50:23 gives us a Hebrew idiom, "hammer of the whole earth." It had been used at one time to describe the way the empires of Persia, Greece and Rome had applied their power to keep the world at peace. Today, after the decline and fall of the Iron Curtain, major news media refer to America as the world’s policeman, in the same kind of role that the Hebrew idiom references. Iraq does not fit this role.

    #26. Known for "showing the flag" or "gunboat diplomacy"
    Isaiah 18:1-2 Here we have two Hebrew idioms for the idea of a nation’s navy showing its power. The phrase in verse 1 relates to the idea of "air travel." The first phrase of verse 2…"that sends ambassadors by the sea," another Hebrew idiom for when ancient naval powers would send warships to "show the flag" of friendship or threaten war to unfriendly nations or cities. Today, one nation engages in such actions: The USA sends out naval units usually as aircraft carrier battle groups. The notion of verse 1 with air travel, combined with verse 2 and the naval aspect, thus combines to send a notion of naval and air power… or suggesting aircraft carriers!!!

    #27. Noted for its elegant, luxurious, refined and rich lifestyles
    Isaiah 47: 1-8; Revelation 17: 4-5; 18: 2 –24. This does not match up with Iraq, as it is not capable of reaching such levels of wealthy living standards in our lifetime.

    #28. Extremely Wealthy
    Jeremiah 51:13… Revelation 18: 2-19

    #29. Sensual, Materialistic lifestyle
    Isaiah 47: 8; Revelation 18:14

    #30. The Highest Living Standards
    Isaiah 47:1 Revelation 18: 14

    #31. Intoxicating high-society lifestyle as a world example to emulate
    Revelation 17:2; Revelation 18: 3, 14, 23.

    #32. Elegant, Sumptuous lifestyle
    Revelation 18: 14, 23.

    #33. Noted for its bright gaudy-colored lights and nightlife with round the-clock partying.
    Revelation 18:14. Note the words "dainty" and "goodly." Dainty is a word in Greek that connotes to 24-hour parties, and is connoted with orgies and debauchery. The word for "goodly" is the Greek word "lampra" from which we get the English word for lamp. In this case it carries the idea of bright, gaudy-colored lights, with idea of "glitzy" lights. Could it be the bright lights of Broadway, Times Square or perhaps even Las Vegas???

    #34. Noted for its Drugs and Drug use
    Isaiah 47: 9, 12. Revelation 18:23 Do we even need to comment on this one??? I think not…the text clearly speaks for itself on this one.

    #35. Noted for exporting its culture abroad:
    Revelation 18:14, 22

    #36. Noted for being Wasteful and Extravagant
    Rev 18: 3, 7, 9, 14, 15; implied in Rev 17: 2.

    #37. Massive Population
    Rev. 18:15. And Revelation 17: 1, 15.

    #38. A land of immigrants
    Jeremiah 50:16; 51:13; Rev. 17:1, 15.

    #39. Unique and awe-inspiring from its birth right up to its demise
    Isa. 18: 2

    #40. A remarkably different heritage
    Isaiah 18:2

    #41. Respected-envied and yet HATED by the whole world also
    Isa. 18:2

    #42. Powerful and Oppressive
    Isaiah 18:2

    #43. Land of Rebels in its birth
    Jeremiah 51: 1; Isaiah 47: 9.

    #44. Cosmopolitan and Urban
    Jeremiah 50:32

    #45. A Land of Agriculture
    Jeremiah 50: 16

    #46. An International City
    Revelation 17: 18; 18:15

    #47. Land of Many Waters (fresh waters)
    Jeremiah 51:13, 36, 42; Isa 18:1,2

    #48. Where the world’s leaders "stream" to meet
    Jer. 51:44; Rev. 17:18

    #49. Last of the Super Powers
    Jeremiah 50:12; Rev 17:18, 19; and in the Revelation 18:18 passage "what city is like the ‘mega’ city"…

    #50. No Fear of Invasion
    Isaiah 47:5, 8; Revelation 18: 7

    #51. Defenses reach up to Outer Space
    Jeremiah 51:53

    #52. Occult aspects, especially within the governmental leadership
    Isaiah 47: 9, 12,13.

    #53. Alliances/Treaties allowing physical military bases of operation for the Satanic forces.
    Revelation 18: 2.

    #54. Its national symbol
    Rev 17. Robed woman with a cup-like container in one hand that smells like natural gas odors inside the container…and the woman is connected to water and immigration…and is considered to be a mother-figure of spiritual prostitution…a.k.a. Ishtar, the mother of ‘literal’ and ‘physical’ prostitutes within religious worship centers. [That is what the Babylonian goddess Ishtar was--the promoter of physical prostitution… salvation by sex… have sex with a temple priest or priestess and you are purified from sin. And of course you pay a ‘gift offering’ for this salvation activity. Ishtar was never a physical ‘mother’… but rather a ‘madam’ over the priestesses. Ishtar was never married and never had a child but she was called "mother" of the temple priestesses. Now having said all of this… I am referring to the Statue of Liberty. Babylonians first worshiped Ishtar the goddess of Babylon and the Romans also adopted her but they changed the name to Libertas in Latin, (Liberty, in English). So that, the Statue of Liberty is actually a pagan idol image of Ishtar--the woman pictured in Revelation 17. If you don’t believe it…look at Revelation 17: 4 & 5. Note the word for abomination. The word used here is "bdelugma" and its root word is "bdeoh." Strong’s Code # 946 … " A foul thing, detestable, usually of idols … the root word means to "break wind", or to "pass gas"… indicating the odor smells like natural gas.
    Speaking of natural gas …did you know that the torch-cup of the Statue of Liberty burns an eternal flame…fueled by smelly natural gas? Also of course, the Statue is referred to as the Mother of Exiles … an immigrant connection…just as the woman of Rev. 17: 1, 15 is also connected to immigrants. So too was Ishtar. She was the goddess of personal freedom … and an encouragement to immigrants.

    #55. A Populated city named Babylon on a Deepwater Port entryway to New York City
    Revelation 17:18; & 18: 11-19… Did you know that when ships coming in to the harbor facilities of New York City make their final approach to the Harbor channel shipping lanes…they have to come in from the south… heading due North straight for a spot on Long Island called … BABYLON !!! That is right. The city of Babylon, New York features a tall water tower that ship captains use to navigate directly into the harbor channel. They come within view of Babylon before turning west to head into the ports of New York City. It is from this vantage point that I believe Revelation 18: 17-19 takes place.
    From this vantage point…on the deck of a ship…one could quite easily read the letters of the name Babylon on the city water tower!!! Talk about literal?? Now that is indeed literal. This is something that theorists who promote the Iraq = Babylon idea can’t match, because ancient Babylon is not a deepwater seaport. It's so far away from the ocean that it can not possibly fit the description of Revelation 18: 17-19… in no way. But the USA can… and especially its chief city… a seaport named NYC/Babylon. Also, Babylon on Long Island derived its name because immigrant Jews founded it in 1872. The group’s rabbis chose the name almost prophetically, because they believed it would be home to a new diaspora.
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

  2. #2
    Senior Member frey#89's Avatar
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    Re: Is America Mystery Babylon?

    Very interesting information indeed. Contribution of time and information for the remnant is very helpful. Brings peace of mind that others seek truth like myself.
    Government entities get pushy and intrusive over any criticism of the USA.

  3. #3

    Re: Is America Mystery Babylon?

    Short answer is no. America is not Mystery Babylon. Babylon in Iraq was destroyed and never to be built again. Babylon is Jerusalem. America is one of many Countries drunken by the Whore(Babylon/Jerusalem).

    I'll find some of Pastor Vissers sermons where he goes into it.

  4. #4

    Re: Is America Mystery Babylon?

    This verse is conveniently left out of the information from above...

    Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    The great city is not a Country. Also, it is not New York since it didn't exist in the time of Christ. This verse speaks for itself. There's only one great city that our Savior was crucified and that city is Jerusalem.

  5. #5

    Re: Is America Mystery Babylon?













    On a side note, for anyone who hasn't listened this series I encourage you to do so. Very edifying.

  6. #6

    Re: Is America Mystery Babylon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    This verse is conveniently left out of the information from above...

    Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    The great city is not a Country. Also, it is not New York since it didn't exist in the time of Christ. This verse speaks for itself. There's only one great city that our Savior was crucified and that city is Jerusalem.
    Thanks Eric, I am very familiar with that passage from Revelation concerning the two witnesses and Jerusalem but, have never connected it to the physical location of Mystery Babylon. I will study and pray about it. On a side note as a young boy I remember my mom's radio preacher talking about this subject and explaining how TV which was very new at the time would allow the whole world to witness this event. I was terrified, that is probably why I remember it so well.
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

  7. #7

    Re: Is America Mystery Babylon?

    Well after praying most of my waking hours, searching the scriptures and consulting learned men about who Mystery Babylon might be I have come to the same conclusions.First: it is a subject that Christian theologians have debated for centuries. Second: America may very well indeed be Mystery Babylon. Third it is a question that can be debated among those who are in Christ Jesus.
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

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