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malachi83
05-27-2010, 05:15 PM
Women Preachers
According to the Holy Scriptures women are not allowed to preach sermons or teach in the official gatherings of the church.
I quote a few Bible texts to support this increasingly unpopular but, nevertheless, inspired directive.

1 Corinthians 14: 24: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35: And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36: What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38: But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Many believers will challenge this stand. It was challenged in Paul's day.
The Apostle anticipated a rejection of this teaching.
verse 36 What came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? He then goes on to say that believers who profess to have the Spirit of God should recognise and acknowledge that what he is writing is in fact the commandment of the Lord!
verse 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. Conclusion Paul's conclusion is that believers who ignore the fact that this is a commandment of God, will remain in ignorance and be ignored themselves. One can hardly imagine a more tragic outcome than to wilfully remain ignorant and be disregarded by the Almighty God. verse 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. When writing to Timothy we find the Apostle saying virtually the same thing.

1 Timothy 2: 11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful MEN, who shall be able to teach others also.

Old & New Testament Examples
No one will doubt but that only men officiated as priests in the Temple services ordained of Almighty God. Had Yeshua the Messiah intended the New Testament church to function differently he would have made that fact known by appointing at least a few women apostles. But he didn't. He chose twelve men who, later, when selecting seven deacons also chose men instead of women for those duties. These facts have a message for the church today. Heed it.

This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in the work of Yahweh.
The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women prophets:

Miriam the sister of Moses. (Exodus 15:20)

Deborah. (Judges 4-5)

Huldah the wife of Shallum. (2 Kings 22:14)

The four daughters of Philip the evangelist. (Acts 21:8-9)

These women obviously used the gift of prophecy to benefit the church; and their prophetic messages were listened to by all who cared to hear the Word of God spoken through them.
But they did not preach nor teach in the temple or in the official Sabbath assemblies. Their prophetic messages were delivered outside the official church gatherings.
That is the point Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 14:34 where he plainly states that women are not allowed to teach or preach in the churches. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."
Bear in mind that Corinth was a city in Greece where democracy was born.
But even there the Greeks had to be taught Yahweh's levels of authority, of which our misguided generation is so ignorant.

The fact is:
by divine command and innumerabe examples in the Scriptures, men are given more authority than women inside the Temple services and church assemblies. Men will also be held more responsible for the errors they make inside the churches. The 'church' incidentally is not a man-made building. The 'church' is the congregation that meets in a building, be it of bricks and mortar or wood. This does not mean that men are more intelligent or able than women. They are not. We all know some folks in authority, men or women, are not always more able than those under them. Nor does it mean that women are more able than men. That also is not the case. What it does mean is that Yahweh has given the men in His church the authority and task of preaching and teaching His Word.
He has not given this authority to women, however qualified they may consider themselves to be.
I repeat: it is a matter of divine authority; not personal preference, sincerity, enthusiasm, democratic expediency, intelligence or ability.
It is a matter of divine authority!
Consequently the Holy Spirit will work more effectively through His authorised channels (the men) than through even the most dedicated or educated of women. Also bear in mind that we are here dealing with Yahweh's commandments, not with the fickle fashions of a wayward and deceived generation.

Things "Unmarried" Women can do in the Church:
Help in Church offices (Filing / Word-processing / Database & e-mail management)
Help teach the very young children
Providing musical accompaniment at Sabbath and social meetings. (Piano, guitar, violin, banjo, mandolin, flute and trumpet etc.)
Doing special items (choir items, testimonies, poems etc.)
Help at Feasts: laying tables, flower arrangements etc.
Help their mothers in their own homes.

Things "Married" Women can do in the Church:
Teaching the young children on the Sabbath
Teaching younger women how to bring up their families
Providing music in church services (choir, keyboard, piano, violin etc.)
Senior secretarial work in the UCOY office.
Reading incoming mail and despatching literature: setting aside letters for personal answers. These letters are answered by the elders (men).
Organising the catering arrangements at all the Feasts.
Keeping Church Accounts.
Voluntary Welfare Work / Dorcas / Community Care / Helping the aged, the young, the lonely, widows, orphans, the sick.


Should Women wear Makeup and/ or Jewelry?:
The Bible doesn't say much about makeup; so I hesitate to pontificate on the subject.
We are, however, told in
Leviticus 19: 28: Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Of course this doesn't expressly deal with the matter of makeup; but it does point to the heathen practice of printing marks on the body, cutting or tattooing (Pagan) marks in it; a practice which is now very fashionable. Some fans at sporting events now paint their faces and bodies in part or whole almost as a way of entertainment and nobody seems to connect this painting craze with the Bible command which forbids believers from marking their faces or bodies in any way.

We read in the book of Kings that the evil queen Jezebel painted her face and tired her hair in an attempt to impress the conquering Jehu who had just killed her son Joram king of Israel in battle.
2 Kings 9:22 And it came to pass, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?…
30: And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her face, and tired her head, and looked out at a window.

In view of these things my personal opinion is that true believers should not paint their faces in a vain attempt to look better than they really are. I can understand a very pale faced woman using a little colouring in order to look healthier; but that is a far cry from what one sees nowadays where, even in Christian churches, women paint their faces and nails and look more like modern versions of Jezebel than the children of God preparing to meet the Saviour. In short, scent, powder, a little makeup, hairstyles, jewellery, expensive clothes etc., may be in order; but there is a fine separating line in all of these things which Christian women and their husbands must decide for themselves.

The wearing of jewellery (rings, precious stones, bracelets, armbands, broaches etc.) is not a sin.
If you study all the texts in the Scriptures on this matter you will see that Yahweh's people (the Israelites) wore jewellery.
Abraham's servant's presented jewellery to Rebekah. (Gen.24:22,53) The High Priest wore jewelled garments. Kings wore rings and the Prodigal Son's father put a ring on his son's hand when he came home (Luke 15:22). Moreover, Yahweh Himself is going to make up his jewels. Malachi 3: 16: Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17: And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
If you study the following passages you will see clearly that the wearing of jewellery is not a sin. (Exodus 11:2, 12:35, Isa.61:10, Eze.16:17-19).
Did not Yahweh Himself clothe Israel his wife with jewellery and fine clothes?
Nevertheless, the wearing of jewellery becomes sin when believers put their gems and fine clothes first before faith, holiness, humility and good works. Then the jewellery has become a snare, an idol - a sin. This means that women may wear jewellery if they please: it is not a sin, so long as it doesn't distort their appearance and become an over-riding obsession.
Then, like every other excess, it can become a snare - a sin.
In 1 Timothy 2:9 Paul is warning about putting fine clothes, elaborate hairstyles and expensive jewellery before good deeds, submissiveness and godliness. It is all a question of priorities. As I said above, if a believer, male or female, gets these things out of order, (in other words if the most important things are put last) then he/she is missing the point and has made a idol of a perfectly acceptable thing. Bodily cleanliness, good clothes, well groomed hair etc. all have their proper place; but they should always come second to godliness, humility and good deeds.

THIS SHOULD PROBABLY GO IN
Bible Tools & Teachers

Solomon
06-03-2010, 02:51 PM
Paul says not to allow women to ursurp authority over men!

Be on guard against certain female-led "CI shows" out there.

Obadiah 1:18
06-03-2010, 10:28 PM
I always get a niggling feeling in my spirit when I hear a woman preach. I don't believe the Bible makes a case for female preachers.

malachi83
06-03-2010, 10:58 PM
Men are the only ones to preach.
Women can do other things also, but men are the preachers.

I think it's like you said Solomon Paul says not to allow women to ursurp authority over men!


1 Timothy 2:11-15: 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. - KJV

seedliner
06-07-2010, 10:31 AM
LOL @ "Women Preachers!"

Solomon
06-14-2010, 10:04 PM
From Kingdom Identity's Herald of Truth (http://www.kingidentity.com/radioarchives/) broadcast...

The Motherhood War, Part 1 (http://www.kingidentity.com/radioarchives/hot05-07-09.mp3)
The Motherhood War, Part 2 (http://www.kingidentity.com/radioarchives/hot05-08-09.mp3)

DunaMiss
06-15-2010, 02:44 AM
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:27-28)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet (Strong’s #H5828 ezer) for him. (Genesis 2:18)

O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help (Strong’s #H5828 ezer) and their shield. (Psalm 115:9)

It’s such a blessing that Yahweh created women in His own image and called women to do the work He does—to be a helper, just like He is!

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever. (John 14:16)

I pray that more Israelite men would be able to afford to have their help meet managing their homes and aiding and assisting them in their businesses and ministries like the Proverbs 31 woman, instead of working for someone else.

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. (3 John 1:2)

Has anyone here been able to find a second or third witness anywhere in the Law, the Prophets, the Doctrines of Jesus, or the Epistles, to establish Paul’s doctrine about women being quiet in the church and not teaching?

…At the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15)

…In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Matthew 18:16)

…In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Corinthians 13:1)

Moreover the LORD said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz. And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah. (Isaiah 8:1-2)

And I will give power unto my two witnesses…. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Revelation 11:3-4)

DunaMiss
06-15-2010, 03:48 AM
...No one will doubt but that only men officiated as priests in the Temple services ordained of Almighty God. Had Yeshua the Messiah intended the New Testament church to function differently he would have made that fact known by appointing at least a few women apostles. But he didn't.

...This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in the work of Yahweh. The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women prophets:

Miriam the sister of Moses. (Exodus 15:20)

Deborah. (Judges 4-5)

Huldah the wife of Shallum. (2 Kings 22:14)

The four daughters of Philip the evangelist. (Acts 21:8-9)

These women obviously used the gift of prophecy to benefit the church; and their prophetic messages were listened to by all who cared to hear the Word of God spoken through them....

Anna is another good example of a female prophet using her gift to benefit Israel. She was always in the temple. She prophesied. She gave thanks aloud. She talked about Jesus and proclaimed the good news to all those who came to the temple (where she always was) and were looking for redemption.

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Luke 2:36-38)

The Lord gives the command; the women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host. (Psalm 68:11)

Exile
06-16-2010, 11:02 PM
One of the best books that I have about the role of women in the Bible is a book call “All of the Women of the Bible” by Edith Deen, Copyright 1955.

Quote; “You can almost trace light and darkness in the Bible by women themselves.”

This book is a plus if your doing any biblical research about women in the Bible. There are 316 concise biographies which are contained in this volume, including 52 searching studies of women in the foreground, more than 125 shorter descriptions of named women and more than 125 descriptions of the nameless women in the background.

Exile

Gnaghi
06-19-2010, 01:19 AM
While we're on the subject, what's your opinion of "porn-star turned pastor" Melissa Scott?

http://www.pastormelissascott.com/

She sure had Dr. Gene hoodwinked!

Obadiah 1:18
06-19-2010, 03:07 AM
While we're on the subject, what's your opinion of "porn-star turned pastor" Melissa Scott?

http://www.pastormelissascott.com/

She sure had Dr. Gene hoodwinked!

Good grief!

I'm sure the guys in her congregation show up on Sunday for all the right reasons.

SaxonJackson
06-19-2010, 08:54 AM
I see women preachers as I see women cops, construction workers, soldiers, etc. They're out of place. There's something in me that says that it just isn't right. Have you ever heard the sound of someone scratching a chalkboard? It sounds much like "pastor" Joyce Meyers: http://www.joycemeyer.org/ourministries/broadcast/ Now if that doesn't get on your nerves then nothing will.

Obadiah 1:18
06-19-2010, 09:05 AM
Joyce Meyers. Now there's a lady who loves the sound of her own voice.

SaxonJackson
06-19-2010, 09:08 AM
Guys are probably the ONLY folks showing up on Sunday.


Good grief!

I'm sure the guys in her congregation show up on Sunday for all the right reasons.

SaxonJackson
06-19-2010, 09:09 AM
Momma sang bass ... daddy sang tenor.


Joyce Meyers. Now there's a lady who loves the sound of her own voice.

malachi83
06-19-2010, 05:51 PM
While we're on the subject, what's your opinion of "porn-star turned pastor" Melissa Scott?

http://www.pastormelissascott.com/

She sure had Dr. Gene hoodwinked!

I think she went by barbi bridges - aka Melissa Scott..

It's ridiculous that a Pornstar could become a priest - Do her congregation KNOW her past???

Obadiah 1:18
06-19-2010, 08:09 PM
Momma sang bass ... daddy sang tenor.

She has that classic butch dyke look and matching voice, doesn't she? If she tucked into a few more pizzas and chocolate sundaes, she could be the Rosie O'Donnel of the word faith movement.

Go for it, Joyce!

malachi83
06-19-2010, 08:19 PM
Joyce Meyers. Now there's a lady who loves the sound of her own voice.

Who's Joyce Meyers?

SaxonJackson
06-19-2010, 10:20 PM
Take a look at post #12 and open the link. You'll wish you hadn't asked.


Who's Joyce Meyers?

SaxonJackson
06-19-2010, 10:22 PM
Take a look at her humble abode:

137
She has that classic butch dyke look and matching voice, doesn't she? If she tucked into a few more pizzas and chocolate sundaes, she could be the Rosie O'Donnel of the word faith movement.

Go for it, Joyce!

Father of Six
06-21-2010, 01:31 AM
Yahweh loves His women, that's a fact.

Camp of Israel
06-24-2010, 11:20 AM
ive heard of her, , joyce meyers, Is she a jew??

Women preachers??? Only in the world of the heretic, modernist, and false prophets. Let them pander to the spirit of jezebel all they want. We, the people of God know the truth and the truth has set us free.

Solomon
06-25-2010, 11:27 AM
This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in the work of Yahweh. The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women prophets:

Miriam The Sister of Moses.
(Exodus 15: 20)

Deborah
(Judges 4-5)

Huldah The Wife of Shallum.
(2 Kings 22: 14)

The Four Daughters of Philip The Evangelist.
(Acts 21: 8-9)

These women obviously used the gift of prophecy to benefit the church; and their prophetic messages were listened to by all who cared to hear the Word of God spoken through them. But they did not preach nor teach in the temple or in the official Sabbath assemblies. Their prophetic messages were delivered outside the official church gatherings. That is the point Paul is making in (1 Corinthians 14: 34) where he plainly states that women are not allowed to teach or preach in the churches.

http://remnantway.com/women_preachers_112.html

malachi83
07-08-2010, 09:28 PM
Future uncertain for woman facing stoning death

A woman facing death by stoning in Iran may have been given a reprieve but her future is still uncertain.

The Guardian reports is it unclear whether alleged adulteress Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani will still be executed by other means.

The Iranian embassy in London said the stoning would not go ahead: "according to information from the relevant judicial authorities."

Britain and the United States have urged Iran to halt the execution.

"Stoning is a medieval punishment that has no place in the modern world and the continued use of such a punishment in Iran demonstrates in our view a blatant disregard for human rights commitments which it has previously entered into," Foreign Secretary William Hague told a news conference.

The US State Department said it was deeply troubled by reports of the proposed stoning execution, which it called "a form of legalised death by torture."

Human rights group Amnesty International said last week it feared that Ashtiani, who has two children, could be executed by stoning at any time for adultery.

It said she was convicted in 2006 of having had an "illicit relationship" with two men and received 99 lashes as her sentence.

The rights group said that, despite this, Mohammadi Ashtiani was subsequently convicted of "adultery while being married," which it said she denied, and was sentenced to death by stoning.

Hague called on Iran to put an immediate stay on the execution and review the process by which Mohammadi Ashtiani was tried.

"If this punishment was carried out it would disgust and appal the watching world," he said.

US State Department spokesman Mark Toner called on Iran to end the practice of stoning, which he said violated United Nations covenants on basic human rights.
"It's barbaric and an abhorrent act," he told reporters.

- Reuters July 9

Solomon
07-21-2010, 09:28 AM
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DunaMiss
08-04-2010, 10:49 PM
Thanks to all for the info on Comparet. I've been listening to him on mp3 lately and really appreciate his contribution to True Christianity. He was a brilliant man of great peace, wisdom, and meekness, as his teachings reflect.

According to Comparet, his wife did a great amount of research work in biblical, archeological, and historical fields, which he used for his own study and teaching. She was an accomplished speaker and was used on his broadcast several times. Here's a message from Mrs. Comparet:

http://www.israelect.com/reference/BertrandLComparet/sermons/What_If_We_are_Israel~&Is_it_Enough_Merely_to_Be_an_Israelite~.mp3


I thought women were not meant to be preachers?

# A Woman's Role - * Old Testament

It would be a tremendous stretch of scripture to say that women are not allowed to speak, proclaim, or declare the gospel to those in their sphere of influence. Women, like men, must believe and obey the doctrines of Jesus Christ and tell the Truth--the Truth that makes people free.

Critical note of Mrs. Comparet's teaching by Clifton A. Emahiser:

(Here's the link for the complete article "THE COMFORT OF THE SCRIPTURES" by Inez Comparet with Emahiser's critical notes: http://emahiser.christogenea.org/Com...Scriptures.pdf )

I never had the privilege to personally meet either Bertrand L. Comparet or his wife Inez. I am only acquainted with their respective voices on audiocassette tape. I think I have only two or three recordings of Inez speaking. I know in some circles in Israel Identity that some men get quite offended if a woman is allowed to speak. I realize that it is Biblical for a woman to be quiet during a worship service. But I’m fully persuaded that if the men are not doing their duty, sometimes a woman must step in and do the job the men are failing to do. I have three particular woman in history that fit such a criteria. These three women in history for which I have special admiration are: Queen Boadicea, Queen Tomyris and Elisabeth Dilling. I don’t know if you have ever heard of Queen Tomyris or not, but she was of the tribe of Massagetae (of Royal blood), and after her husband the King had died, she had to take charge of their army, and she out-maneuvered and outwitted the Biblical Cyrus who was killed in battle when he tried to subdue her an her tribe (Herodotus 1.205 through end of book 1).

Next we shall consider one of the brilliant lady military leaders of her time. Her name was Boadicea. I will quote from Father Abraham’s Children, by Perry Edwards Powell, Ph. D., pages 108-109: “ The last phase of this War of Independence is called the Boadicean War. The Iceni and Coranidae as allies of Rome had as yet been peaceful. King Prasutagus had borrowed two million pounds sterling of Seneca, Nero’s minister, and had given all his public buildings as security. He died at the commencement of the war and made Nero heir with his two daughters. Caius Decius was ordered to collect and he did so with a ferocity and a barbarity, levying on the noble’s palaces as well as the royal properties, that he inflamed the whole island. He seized Queen Boadicea and her daughters and among [his] outrageous acts lashed the Page 4 bare back of the Queen. Now no Cymro will stand for that. When she made her appeal to the men and pulled her long tresses apart and showed her welted back all the men asked to march behind her. The army began with 120,000 men and at its height numbered 230,000. Eighty thousand Romans perished. The Roman army advanced not a step. No quarter was asked or given. Forty thousand Romans were slaughtered in London. In the midst of the conflict Boadicea died, according to Tacitus, of poison. She had earned her name, Victoria. Her successors as generals were Arviragus, Venusius, and Gwallog of Galgacus. The power of the whole Empire of Rome was paralyzed.”

The third lady I have in mind is Elizabeth Dilling whose legacy has left to us a monumental record of the machinations of our common enemy. She fought not with an army under her command, but with her pen. Are we supposed to burn all of her books, as a woman is not to speak out in our assemblies? There are men in Israel Identity today who really think they are hotshots, who can’t hold a candle to Elizabeth Dilling! And if Elizabeth were living today, these same hotshots would refuse to let her to speak at their meetings! Retrospectively, Elizabeth Dilling should have been invited to speak by every church in the America and all White Israel nations.

That brings us to a fourth lady in the person of Inez Comparet. In this article which you have just read, you have witnessed a work that few men in our movement have the capability of composing. Let me repeat just one short passage that everyone should take to heart: “We have been given plenty of warning not to help our enemies. For example, ‘ Give not thine honor to another, nor the things that are profitable unto thee to a strange nation.’ Strange here means foreign. Baruch 4:3 and Ecclesiasticus 12:5 instructs us, ‘ Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly: hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him, lest he overmaster thee thereby: Else thou shalt receive twice as much evil for all the good thou shalt have done unto him.’ Deuteronomy 23:6 also tells us, ‘ Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity, all thy days forever ’.”

Surely it is evident that Inez would not have sent Bibles to Nigeria as did Ted R. Weiland! Not only did Inez show her composing ability, but she must have been a wonderful wife to Bertrand. We should honor Bertrand L. Comparet for his excellent teachings, which I would rate percentage wise in the +90s, but had he not had a woman of the caliber of Inez behind him, chances are he would not have done nearly as well.

-Clifton A. Emahiser

Obadiah 1:18
08-04-2010, 11:24 PM
There have been times in history when God has placed women in positions of authority, but He has done this as a sign of His judgment against men. It's not Yahweh's will for women to lead men into battle nor to rule over men in any way. However, if men aren't going to take charge, as He intended them to do, He will raise up women to do the job. The mistake people make is to look at these heroic women who stepped into the breach, when men wouldn't, at critical times in our history and take that as proof that it's okay for women to be military or religious leaders. No, it's not okay. But if men are going to act like women, sometimes it becomes necessary for women to act like men.

My father was an alcoholic, and my mother always had to do chores like mow the lawn because he wouldn't do them himself. Mum always acquitted herself well no matter what she set her hand to do, but that didn't mean that God wanted her to do all of the work or to be forced into a position where she had to be both father and mother to her children. She had to do those things purely because my father disobeyed God's commandment for him to be the head of the house and to be a loving husband and father.

DunaMiss
08-05-2010, 02:43 PM
There have been times in history when God has placed women in positions of authority, but He has done this as a sign of His judgment against men. It's not Yahweh's will for women to lead men into battle nor to rule over men in any way. However, if men aren't going to take charge, as He intended them to do, He will raise up women to do the job. The mistake people make is to look at these heroic women who stepped into the breach, when men wouldn't, at critical times in our history and take that as proof that it's okay for women to be military or religious leaders. No, it's not okay. But if men are going to act like women, sometimes it becomes necessary for women to act like men.

My father was an alcoholic, and my mother always had to do chores like mow the lawn because he wouldn't do them himself. Mum always acquitted herself well no matter what she set her hand to do, but that didn't mean that God wanted her to do all of the work or to be forced into a position where she had to be both father and mother to her children. She had to do those things purely because my father disobeyed God's commandment for him to be the head of the house and to be a loving husband and father.

Good point, Obadiah. Yahweh wants His men to carry out their role of leadership as He designed it. This does not have any bearing on whether or not women should speak, proclaim, or declare the gospel to those in their sphere of influence. Women, like men, must believe and obey the doctrines of Jesus Christ and tell the Truth--the Truth that makes people free. Some people call this preaching. I call it obeying the commands of Jesus.

The Lord gives the command; The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host. Psalm 68:11 NASB

Obadiah 1:18
08-05-2010, 07:53 PM
This does not have any bearing on whether or not women should speak, proclaim, or declare the gospel to those in their sphere of influence. Women, like men, must believe and obey the doctrines of Jesus Christ and tell the Truth--the Truth that makes people free. Some people call this preaching. I call it obeying the commands of Jesus.

The Lord gives the command; The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host. Psalm 68:11 NASB

I agree. As long as they're not doing their preaching and proclaiming from behind a pulpit.

DunaMiss
08-06-2010, 12:25 AM
Jesus set quite a precedent for ministry to women, for receiving ministry from women, and for commissioning women to proclaim the gospel truth. Here are some of the numerous accounts of women ministering to Jesus and of women declaring the good news of Jesus to others.

Elizabeth, a righteous daughter of the priestly line of Aaron, was the first person recorded in the New Testament to proclaim a blessing over Jesus:

…Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb….” (Luke 1:41-42)

Mary also prophesied regarding Jesus:

And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty. He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy, as He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever." (Luke 1:46-55)

Anna, a prophetess, confirmed Jesus to be the Redeemer of Israel in the midst of the temple in Jerusalem when He was brought there for His dedication. The bible says that Anna was always in the temple. She prophesied and gave thanks aloud in the temple. She talked about Jesus to all those who came to the temple and were looking for redemption. She declared the truth about Jesus in the temple.

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, …which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Luke 2:36-38)

Jesus spoke to the woman at the well and gave her deep truths about salvation. She went forth spreading the news about Jesus to the men in the city, and they in turn came to Jesus and believed on Him.

The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, “Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?” Then they went out of the city, and came unto him. …And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, “He told me all that ever I did.” (John 4:28-30, 39)

Women travelled with Jesus and ministered to Him as He went about preaching the good news of the Kingdom.

And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, and certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, and Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance. (Luke 8:1-3)

There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome. When He was in Galilee, they used to follow Him and minister to Him; and there were many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem. (Mark 15:40-41)

Before all the men present at a dinner gathering, Jesus received a special anointing for His burial from a woman. He rebuked His disciples when they criticized Him for doing so.

A woman came to Him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table. But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste?” …But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. …For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her." (Matthew 26:7-13)

Jesus appeared after His resurrection first to a woman and commanded her to go and declare the good news to the assembly of His disciples.

Jesus saith unto her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.’” Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things unto her. (John 20:17-18)

Jesus received ministry from women and sent women out to declare the good news during His ministry on earth. His ways have not changed with the passing of two thousand years. Since Jesus doesn’t have a problem receiving from women nor with women preaching the truth, neither should we.

Obadiah 1:18
08-06-2010, 01:16 AM
Jesus received ministry from women and sent women out to declare the good news during His ministry on earth. His ways have not changed with the passing of two thousand years. Since Jesus doesn’t have a problem receiving from women nor with women preaching the truth, neither should we.
I don't have a problem with women preaching the truth, provided they're not preaching a sermon in church. According to Scripture, women are not to have authority over men. If a woman is preaching in church, she is exercising the kind of authority that God has not given her. It doesn't matter whether she's more articulate and intelligent and has greater knowledge of the Scriptures than the men to whom she's preaching, for God has commanded men, not women, to be the leaders in church and in the home, and there is no getting around that.

1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

stardust
08-06-2010, 01:28 PM
In the church there is a place for everyone who is of the remnant of Israel and is purified and baptized=male and female, young and old. Take these verses for example:

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I, as a woman always want to help with the ministry but am afraid to cross any barriers which are not permittable. . . and I think these verses from Malachi are helpful because it shows us women some of the things we can do with our faith and love;

Malachi= thanks for this information:


This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in the work of Yahweh.
The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women prophets:

Miriam the sister of Moses. (Exodus 15:20)

Deborah. (Judges 4-5)

Huldah the wife of Shallum. (2 Kings 22:14)

The four daughters of Philip the evangelist. (Acts 21:8-9)

These women obviously used the gift of prophecy to benefit the church; and their prophetic messages were listened to by all who cared to hear the Word of God spoken through them.
But they did not preach nor teach in the temple or in the official Sabbath assemblies. Their prophetic messages were delivered outside the official church gatherings.
Things "Married" Women can do in the Church:
Teaching the young children on the Sabbath
Teaching younger women how to bring up their families
Providing music in church services (choir, keyboard, piano, violin etc.)
Senior secretarial work in the UCOY office.
Reading incoming mail and despatching literature: setting aside letters for personal answers. These letters are answered by the elders (men).
Organising the catering arrangements at all the Feasts.

In contrast we know also what women are not to be and what men are not to be so neither of these types have a place in the church:

Deu 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

We must learn to flee from evil and put hell and damnation far from us, this is one of the ways they used to do it, also take note that we do not pray for the evil nor have compassion upon them:

Eze 23:47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
Eze 23:48 Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.
Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Look around at the world today and how America, the great whore of Babylon, smiles at her adultery and fornication and promotes all manner of sin and wickedness and revels in idolatry. Think of the type of society the poor innocent children are taught to look up to and accept as a role model for civilization. . . the modern material girl Madonna vs. the blessed virgin Madonna are certainly of clashing opposing spiritual forces, it is called darkness vs. light! Open your eyes to all that is around you and ask God how you can battle for his side. . . when the true sheep band together, he will lead us.

Another note:
Jezebel painted her face just before her death.
I read in the lost books that make up or face painting was taught by the angels- just like many other things, how to grind wheat, how to make wine=taught by angels. I concur that one can listen to a fallen angel or an everlasting angel. The cartoons depicting the angel/devil symptoms are worthy of contemplation because the original sin is just like the sin of today. If you fall for the the words of the father of lies, the serpent who was in the garden, you will be turning your back on God. But if you hearken unto God you will inherit paradise. Think of all the times angels appeared to our forefathers with tidings of joy or woe*

One definition of angel=ang'-el-os
especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

If you are a woman, your best chance at serving God is to get married, raise your children in God’s Holy Scriptures and pray without ceasing. In this way you can seek the salvation of God’s holy seed and be saved in childbearing if you raise them in the correct spirit. You may choose to remain a chaste virgin unto Christ so that you will not have to concern yourself with the natural necessities of man and worldly wares but then again when you are living in the end times and godly men need help meets to withstand the evils of this wicked generation, well , I think naturually you may feel called to appeal the Lord for this type of wedded, holy, matrimonial service. Beware of the dangers of losing sight of your goals, because Satan is always on task at working to destroy your home.

Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

Wether you are a man or a woman, DO THIS:

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

And remember:

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


In Christian love,

Stardust~*Mrs. Visser*

malachi83
08-06-2010, 05:54 PM
I don't have a problem with women preaching the truth, provided they're not preaching a sermon in church. According to Scripture, women are not to have authority over men. If a woman is preaching in church, she is exercising the kind of authority that God has not given her. It doesn't matter whether she's more articulate and intelligent and has greater knowledge of the Scriptures than the men to whom she's preaching, for God has commanded men, not women, to be the leaders in church and in the home, and there is no getting around that.

1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I feel the same way...

DunaMiss
08-07-2010, 03:33 AM
Scripture requires us to uphold the doctrines of Jesus above all other opinions, whether they be our own or those of another. Regardless of how loving, esteemed, or godly a particular Christian may be, we must always judge their doctrines according to those of Jesus. The doctrines, or teachings, of Jesus are those sayings that He spoke, the commands He gave, and the things He did. Jesus’ doctrines were always in agreement with those of His Father’s. He never spoke out of line with scripture or did anything that wasn’t pleasing to His Father.

Jesus answered them, and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me.” (John 7:17)

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. …Therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me. (John 12:49-50)

And He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him. (John 8:29)

The Father said to Moses, “I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.” (Deuteronomy 18:18)

For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything He tells you." (Acts 3:22)

While He yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him.” (Matthew 17:5)

Here is My servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will proclaim justice to the nations. (Matthew 12:18)

In regards to the question of women speaking in assemblies, we must determine if Paul was upholding the doctrines of Jesus when he wrote the following sayings in his first letter to the Corinthians:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

There is not one scripture, from Genesis to Malachi, recording a law, statute, ordinance, or judgment for women to keep silent in the assemblies. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms silences women. Jesus never silenced women. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms declares it a shame for women to speak in the assembly. Jesus never taught that it was a shame for women to speak anywhere.

On the other hand, the tradition of the elders—the “law” of the Talmud—silences women. The tradition of the elders designates the speech of women as shameful.

"A woman's voice is prohibited because it is sexually provocative" (Talmud, Berachot 24a).

"It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men" (Talmud, Tractate Kiddushin)

"The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness" (Talmud, Berachot Kiddushin)

"Women are sexually seductive, mentally inferior, socially embarrassing, and spiritually separated from the law of Moses; therefore, let them be silent" (summary of Talmudic sayings).

See http://www.his-kingdom.net/women/new-light-on-1cor14-34-36.html

Adam Clarke (1762-1832) in his Bible commentary stated, “Women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies or even to ask questions," according to Jewish ordinances. "The rabbis taught that 'a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.'" He referenced the “sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, ‘Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.’”

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders?” …He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? …Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matthew 15:1-3, 6-9)

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men. …All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition, …making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do. (Mark 7:8-9, 13)

Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Matthew 16:12)

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house…. (2 John 1:9-10)

Obadiah 1:18
08-07-2010, 04:43 AM
There is not one scripture, from Genesis to Malachi, recording a law, statute, ordinance, or judgment for women to keep silent in the assemblies. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms silences women. Jesus never silenced women. Neither Yahweh’s Law, His Prophets, nor His Psalms declares it a shame for women to speak in the assembly. Jesus never taught that it was a shame for women to speak anywhere.

You could use the same argument to say that it's all right for children to preach in a church setting. The key word here isn't silence it's authority. God has not given women the authority to preach to men in church. This goes beyond the problem that Paul was addressing in 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Which is why in verses 13-14 he adds that God formed Adam before Eve, giving Adam preeminence authority-wise over her, and that it was Eve, not Adam, who was deceived in the Garden of Eden. This is a vital spiritual point that cannot be dismissed on the grounds that Paul was only addressing a problem in the church, which was unique to that particular period in history, since what happened in the Garden of Eden pertains to the church today, as it did almost 2000 years ago.

Isaiah 3:12
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

DunaMiss
08-07-2010, 05:33 AM
...This is a vital spiritual point that cannot be dismissed on the grounds that Paul was only addressing a problem in the church, which was unique to that particular period in history...

The leaven of the pharisees was not just a problem in the early church, unique to that particular period of history. Jesus warned us to beware of the doctrine of the pharisees, which is as much a problem for us today as it was in His day. The leaven has spread through the minds and hearts of the majority of Christians.

Many sincere believers today elevate the teachings of those they consider to be leaders of the church (both past and present) over the teachings of Jesus. Their religious ideas are based on the teachings of those who do not uphold the doctrines of Jesus.

Jesus issued warning after warning about this. He cautioned His followers to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Why? Because they were drooling and ready to devour. Their doctrines are still eating away at the fold today.

Jesus said, “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.” (John 5:23)

How can you say, “We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us”? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. (Jeremiah 8:8)

Yes, they are greedy dogs which never have enough. And they are shepherds who cannot understand; they all look to their own way, every one for his own gain, from his own territory. (Isaiah 56:11)

Obadiah 1:18
08-07-2010, 09:28 AM
All of the twelve apostles Christ handpicked were men. All of the early church leaders were men. It was Peter, not Mary Magdalene, who Christ told to feed the flock. There is nothing Christ said or did that countermands Paul's counsel to Timothy regarding women in the church. Therefore the argument that forbidding women to preach to men in church is unscriptural and somehow pharisaical is not a valid one.

DunaMiss
08-07-2010, 12:08 PM
Jesus appeared after His resurrection first to a woman and commanded her to go and declare the good news to the assembly of His disciples.

Jesus saith unto her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.’” Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things unto her. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (John 20:17-19)

This is one very specific example of Jesus commissioning a woman to preach a vital message to a gathering of men (men only, or men and women both, the bible doesn't specify). I can only assume that they weren't gathered in a building called a "church" with a pulpit, however. If Jesus had wanted to set a precedent regarding women never preaching to men, He certainly could have chosen the world-changing moment of His resurrection to make such a statement. Yet we see Him affirming no such doctrines here.

Obadiah 1:18
08-07-2010, 09:46 PM
This is one very specific example of Jesus commissioning a woman to preach a vital message to a gathering of men (men only, or men and women both, the bible doesn't specify). I can only assume that they weren't gathered in a building called a "church" with a pulpit, however. If Jesus had wanted to set a precedent regarding women never preaching to men, He certainly could have chosen the world-changing moment of His resurrection to make such a statement. Yet we see Him affirming no such doctrines here.

Jesus wasn't commissioning her to preach to men, he was merely instructing her to report what she had seen to His followers. If, as you assume, that this account is proof positive that Christ had anointed Mary to preach to men in church, why doesn't the Scripture make this much clearer? After all, her appointment to preach to men would have been an epochal moment in church history. Yet nowhere in the Bible do we read that Christ placed Mary in a position of leadership. The Bible is very clear about the leadership roles of men such as Peter and Paul, so why isn't it equally clear about Mary's role?

DunaMiss
08-07-2010, 10:37 PM
Jesus wasn't commissioning her (Mary) to preach to men, he was merely instructing her to report what she had seen to His followers.
Reporting what you have seen is often called “witnessing” and is included in preaching and teaching.


If, as you assume, that this account is proof positive that Christ had anointed Mary to preach to men in church, why doesn't the Scripture make this much clearer? After all, her appointment to preach to men would have been an epochal moment in church history. Yet nowhere in the Bible do we read that Christ placed Mary in a position of leadership.
Jesus didn’t have to establish a reversal for a precedent that was never set in scripture. Women were never commanded by Yahweh to be silent, to not preach, or to not speak in an assembly that includes men. That was a new rule for church conduct that Paul started.


The Bible is very clear about the leadership roles of men such as Peter and Paul...
When Jesus told Peter to feed the sheep, He was restoring Peter from a fallen, backslidden state and reestablishing the commission He had given to him and all the rest of His disciples (the twelve, the seventy, the one hundred and twenty, etc.) to serve His people.

Jesus never mentioned Paul.

As far as leadership roles, Jesus said:

But you, do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12)

Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:42-45)


...so why isn't it equally clear about Mary's role?
Jesus didn’t need to outline each individual disciple’s role. Mary’s role is like that of any other disciple of Jesus who would take up their cross and follow Him: obey the commands of Jesus, serve His people, preach the gospel, etc.

malachi83
08-07-2010, 11:07 PM
Matthew 12:46-50:46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

- King James Version

50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Obadiah 1:18
08-08-2010, 01:47 AM
Reporting what you have seen is often called “witnessing” and is included in preaching and teaching.

Reporting what you have seen is also often just called reporting or relaying news, as was the case here. To infer from the Gospel account that when Mary informed the disciples of Christ's resurrection she preached to them as well is to read something into Scripture that isn't there.


Jesus didn’t have to establish a reversal for a precedent that was never set in scripture. Women were never commanded by Yahweh to be silent, to not preach, or to not speak in an assembly that includes men. That was a new rule for church conduct that Paul started.

Are you saying that because Paul "started" it, it's not scriptural? That's a pretty shaky foundation to build your argument on. In I Timothy 1:1, Paul states that he was an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I can see no reason to question this. You can?

Paul made it plain that his directive for women to remain silent in church related to an important spiritual principle, that being that women are not to usurp authority from men. If I were to enter a church and see a woman preaching a sermon to a congregation that included men, I would immediately think that she was exercising authority over those men, and I would be right on the money.


When Jesus told Peter to feed the sheep, He was restoring Peter from a fallen, backslidden state and reestablishing the commission He had given to him and all the rest of His disciples (the twelve, the seventy, the one hundred and twenty, etc.) to serve His people.

Jesus never mentioned Paul.

Jesus never mentioned Pastor Visser, Wesley Swift, or Martin Luther either. Does that mean their church leadership isn't, or wasn't, legitimate? You can't necessarily prove something from Scripture because it is absent in Scripture. It's like the old guy who wrote a story about Jesus and His pet dog because even though the Bible doesn't say Jesus had a dog, the Bible doesn't say He didn't have a dog.


Jesus didn’t need to outline each individual disciple’s role. Mary’s role is like that of any other disciple of Jesus who would take up their cross and follow Him: obey the commands of Jesus, serve His people, preach the gospel, etc.

Jesus didn't need to outline each disciple's role because they, men and women, already knew what their roles were. The men were to be the leaders in the church. The women were to assist the men, not as leaders, but as helpers. They could preach and teach in certain circumstances, as long as they weren't wresting authority from men in the process.

DunaMiss
08-08-2010, 02:21 AM
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…. (Matthew 28:19-20)

For I give you good doctrine: Do not forsake My Law. (Proverbs 4:2)

Jesus didn’t institute a rule for women to be silent in the church and not preach to men. This rule is nowhere to be found in the Law, the Psalms, or the Prophets. Paul was the one who introduced this new rule for church conduct to believers. His foundation for this rule is not the Law of Moses, Jesus’ doctrines, or any other scripture because no precedent for this rule can be found anywhere in scripture.


...the argument that forbidding women to preach to men in church is unscriptural and somehow pharisaical is not a valid one.

The only other witness in the bible to Paul’s new rule for church conduct as written in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is Paul’s own confirmation of it in 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Paul’s confirmation of his own theology is not a legitimate basis for establishing a doctrine and requiring Yahweh’s people to follow it.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

The tradition of the elders (the Talmud) is the source for Paul’s unique rule for church conduct. It is also the source for his obscure notion that women must have their heads covered.

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. …Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? (1 Corinthians 11:5-6, 13)

“It is prohibited for men to pray in the presence of women whose hair is uncovered (Talmud, Berachot 24a) since it is proper for Jewish women to cover their hair (Talmud, Tosefta Ketubot 7:6). …A woman standing in a doorway with uncovered hair should be avoided (Talmud, Sanhedrin 110a). Financial compensation must be paid to a woman by someone who intentionally uncovers her hair in public (Talmud, Baba Kamma 8:6).” From Encyclopedia of Medicine in the Bible and the Talmud by Fred Rosner

There is no scriptural precedent for Paul’s opinion about women’s head coverings and the impropriety of praying with uncovered hair. In fact, Jesus made it well known that He had no problem with women having free-flowing hair and kissing His feet, worshipping Him, anointing Him, washing His feet with tears, and wiping his feet with their uncovered hair.

And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. (Luke 7:37-39)

Paul was a Pharisee. His father was a Pharisee. He never publicly renounced Pharisaism. Even years after his conversion to Christianity, He was still testifying that he was a Pharisee.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee….” (Acts 23:6)

Paul claimed to have studied under Gamaliel, the preeminent Pharisee of his day.

I am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, and I was brought up and educated here in Jerusalem under Gamaliel. At his feet I learned to follow our Jewish laws and customs very carefully…. (Acts 22:3)

I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. (Galatians 1:14)

He never claimed to have sat at the feet of Jesus or to have studied with any of those who did. In fact, he stated emphatically that he did not consult with anyone who had lived with, travelled with, or received instruction directly from Jesus (as the disciples in Jerusalem had) but went away alone to get his doctrine.

For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it…. I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. (Galatians 1:11-12, 16-17)

With such indoctrination in the traditions of the elders and no first-hand experience with Jesus, His doctrines, or His followers, it’s not surprising that Pharisaical ideas would surface in Paul’s writings. This seems to be the source for some of the confusion in Paul’s teachings.


In I Timothy 1:1, Paul states that he was an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I can see no reason to question this. You can?

Jesus never called Paul an “Apostle.” None of the apostles Jesus appointed called Paul an apostle. Paul called himself an apostle. He’s the only one who ever used that title for himself anywhere in the bible. He would have been the thirteenth apostle, since there were already twelve.

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. …For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:15-26)

DunaMiss
08-08-2010, 03:39 AM
Jesus saith unto her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.’” Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things unto her. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (John 20:17-19)


Jesus wasn't commissioning her to preach to men, he was merely instructing her to report what she had seen to His followers....


Reporting what you have seen is also often just called reporting or relaying news, as was the case here. To infer from the Gospel account that when Mary informed the disciples of Christ's resurrection she preached to them as well is to read something into Scripture that isn't there....

Jesus gave Mary a specific message to preach (or tell, proclaim, declare, speak, report good news) to the assembly of disciples: "Go to My brethren, and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.'"

All preachers should endeavor to speak a message from Jesus. This is the essence of scriptural, Spirit-filled preaching. And what a glorious message Mary was given! This message is as vital today as it was when she spoke it. There are still Israelites who are unaware that Jesus is alive and has ascended to the Father with His own blood in payment for their redemption and reconciliation to Him.

Obadiah 1:18
08-08-2010, 06:26 AM
Jesus didn’t institute a rule for women to be silent in the church and not preach to men. This rule is nowhere to be found in the Law, the Psalms, or the Prophets. Paul was the one who introduced this new rule for church conduct to believers. His foundation for this rule is not the Law of Moses, Jesus’ doctrines, or any other scripture because no precedent for this rule can be found anywhere in scripture.

Jesus didn't need to institute a rule because it was already accepted that women were not to have authority over men. This rule, as you call it, goes right back to the Garden of Eden, where God Himself set the precedent for it by forming Adam before Eve, who was created to help Adam, not to seize control from him. And that precedent is echoed by both testaments, with all the leaders of Israel and the early church being men, including all the prophets, major and minor, whose books comprise much of the OT. When it comes to Christian leadership, men, not women have almost always been God's mouthpiece. The only times this wasn't so is when the men of Israel were derelict in their duty to God.


The only other witness in the bible to Paul’s new rule for church conduct as written in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is Paul’s own confirmation of it in 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Paul’s confirmation of his own theology is not a legitimate basis for establishing a doctrine and requiring Yahweh’s people to follow it.

Paul's "new rule" cannot be separated from his statement that women are not to have authority over men, which, again, he directly links to what happened in the Garden of Eden. So the doctrine was established long before he articulated it.


The tradition of the elders (the Talmud) is the source for Paul’s unique rule for church conduct.

This is not supported by Scripture. That there are some small similarities between what the Talmud says and what Paul said does not prove that the Talmud inspired his teachings. I agree with Martin Lindstedt that Christians shouldn't race mix, but that doesn't mean that I look to him for inspiration and guidance on religious matters.



There is no scriptural precedent for Paul’s opinion about women’s head coverings and the impropriety of praying with uncovered hair. In fact, Jesus made it well known that He had no problem with women having free-flowing hair and kissing His feet, worshipping Him, anointing Him, washing His feet with tears, and wiping his feet with their uncovered hair.

You could also argue that Jesus didn't have that much of a problem with the woman who was caught in the act of adultery because He didn't see to it that she was put to death for her sin, which she should have been according to His Father's law. Exceptions do not prove the rule, only that whoever makes the rule can make an exception to that rule. Moreover, there is no Scripture that states that Christ had no problem with women having uncovered hair, nor is there one that even implies He made it "well-known" that he had no problem with "free-flowing" hair.


Paul was a Pharisee. His father was a Pharisee. He never publicly renounced Pharisaism. Even years after his conversion to Christianity, He was still testifying that he was a Pharisee.

Paul may have been a pharisee in name but not in deed, and that is a crucial difference. Before his conversion, he was persecuting Christians, but after his conversion, he was persecuted as a Christian. Further, He was called to be a Christian by the audible voice of Christ Himself, and following his conversion to Christianity was accepted into the fold by no less a man than Barnabas, who presented him to the disciples and explained to them how confidently and courageously Paul had been been preaching in the name of Jesus.


He never claimed to have sat at the feet of Jesus or to have studied with any of those who did. In fact, he stated emphatically that he did not consult with anyone who had lived with, travelled with, or received instruction directly from Jesus (as the disciples in Jerusalem had) but went away alone to get his doctrine.

The overwhelming majority of godly men and women in the history of the Church cannot make that claim either. He didn't go off by himself to get his doctrine, the Bible says that after Ananias visited him, under direct instructions from the Lord, he remained with the disciples for several days in Damascus (Acts 9:19). Doubtless they would have taught him much about Christian doctrine.


With such indoctrination in the traditions of the elders and no first-hand experience with Jesus, His doctrines, or His followers, it’s not surprising that Pharisaical ideas would surface in Paul’s writings. This seems to be the source for some of the confusion in Paul’s teachings.

It is plain from the account of Paul's conversion in the Book of Acts and the events that followed his conversion that he was a man called by God, a calling that was recognized by other Spirit-led men and women of that time. Some of the greatest passages in Scripture, including Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 13, were written by Paul. Should we dismiss these Scriptures too, or only those that women champing at the bit to preach a sermon to men disapprove of?


Jesus never called Paul an “Apostle.” None of the apostles Jesus appointed called Paul an apostle. Paul called himself an apostle. He’s the only one who ever used that title for himself anywhere in the bible. He would have been the thirteenth apostle, since there were already twelve.

Paul's manifest calling by Jesus Christ is recorded in Scripture and was corroborated by devout men such as Ananias and Barnabas, who were guided by God to help and encourage him. I'd say that this trumps the above quote.


Jesus gave Mary a specific message to preach (or tell, proclaim, declare, speak, report good news) to the assembly of disciples: "Go to My brethren, and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.'"

No. He gave her a specific message to tell them. No mention whatsoever is made of her turning that message into a sermon which she preached to men.

DunaMiss
08-09-2010, 02:08 AM
Jesus didn't need to institute a rule because it was already accepted that women were not to have authority over men. This rule, as you call it, goes right back to the Garden of Eden, where God Himself set the precedent for it by forming Adam before Eve, who was created to help Adam, not to seize control from him. And that precedent is echoed by both testaments, with all the leaders of Israel and the early church being men, including all the prophets, major and minor, whose books comprise much of the OT. When it comes to Christian leadership, men, not women have almost always been God's mouthpiece. The only times this wasn't so is when the men of Israel were derelict in their duty to God.
“Preaching” is not a synonym for “authority” in the bible, nor is it one of the definitions of “authority” in the dictionary. “Preaching the gospel” does not equal “authority over men.”


Paul's "new rule" cannot be separated from his statement that women are not to have authority over men, which, again, he directly links to what happened in the Garden of Eden. So the doctrine was established long before he articulated it.
In the beginning, Yahweh gave them—men and women—their commission together as ONE:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:27-28)

Yahweh created women in His Own image to help the men He created in His Own image carry out the commission He gave them to do together as ONE.

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. …And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Genesis 2:18, 23-24)

Jesus reiterated what Yahweh established in the beginning: men and women were to carry out their commission in obedience to Yahweh as ONE. He rebuked husbands for having hard hearts and breaking apart what God had joined together as ONE:

…Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. …He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:4-8)

Yahweh commanded husbands and wives to be joined together as ONE in obedience to Him. There is a judgment for breaking the Law of one flesh obedience to Him:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16)

One of the curses established in the garden for Yahweh’s women who violate His Law was that their husbands would rule over them. When Yahweh’s people obey His One Flesh Law, they are not subject to the curse. When Israel obeys the Law, blessings follow. When Israel breaks the Law, curses come.

When Paul wrote his epistles, he created a doctrine out of this curse in the garden. He called the curse a blessing by perverting it into a doctrine for the church to be subject to. The leaven of that doctrine has permeated the entire Kingdom of God.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2:11-15)

Yahweh never said: “Adam was formed before Eve, and thereby men will have dominion over women henceforth forevermore.”

Furthermore, women are not saved in childbearing. This is a lie against the doctrines of Jesus Christ. They are saved by believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ and receiving the remission of their sins in baptism, just like men are. The Lamb of God didn't discriminate against women when He took away the sins of the world. I can only imagine where Paul came up with this idea.


You could also argue that Jesus didn't have that much of a problem with the woman who was caught in the act of adultery because He didn't see to it that she was put to death for her sin, which she should have been according to His Father's law. Exceptions do not prove the rule, only that whoever makes the rule can make an exception to that rule.
Jesus didn’t violate Yahweh’s Law to make an exception for the woman caught in adultery. Jesus advised the woman’s accusers to go ahead and stone her by telling them who should throw the first one. After the witnesses all left the scene, there was no longer a legal means for carrying out the sentence. The bible doesn’t say that Jesus was a witness to the crime, and He would never bear false witness by accusing someone based on hearsay.


Moreover, there is no Scripture that states that Christ had no problem with women having uncovered hair, nor is there one that even implies He made it "well-known" that he had no problem with "free-flowing" hair.
Jesus didn’t have a problem with free-flowing hair because He didn’t rebuke the woman for wiping her hair all over his feet in public. He always did and said what His Father commanded Him to. He never had a problem giving a public rebuke when needed. It’s well-known that He had no problem with her hair because multiplied millions of people have read this chapter of the bible, as He knew they would.


Jesus never mentioned Pastor Visser, Wesley Swift, or Martin Luther either. Does that mean their church leadership isn't, or wasn't, legitimate?
Not at all. Paul was a man commissioned to preach the gospel and bring people into the Kingdom just like Martin Luther, Wesley Swift, Pastor Visser, and all disciples of Jesus Christ. He was not authorized to add to or take away from the Law of Moses, the Prophets, or the doctrines of Jesus. No disciple of Jesus has been authorized to violate the Law or the commands of Christ.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him…. (2 John 1:9-10)

Obadiah 1:18
08-10-2010, 05:02 AM
"Preaching" is not a synonym for "authority" in the bible, nor is it one of the definitions of "authority" in the dictionary. Preaching the gospel does not equal authority over men.

The point of this debate isn't whether a woman should preach but whether a woman should preach to men in church. The precise meaning of the word preaching isn't in dispute here.


In the beginning, Yahweh gave them--men and women--their commission together as ONE:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:27-28)

Yahweh created women in His Own image to help the men He created in His Own image carry out the commission He gave them to do together as ONE

That all changed with the Fall, and God was very specific about what had changed:

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

There is no commandment in the Bible that rescinds the above God-given law. Men are still to rule over women in a society, marriage, and church where His laws are obeyed. The proliferation and the general acceptance of female preachers we see today is symptomatic of His people's apostasy. When we look in the Bible at those all too brief periods when Israel and the early Church did obey God we see that, without exception, men, not women, held the positions of leadership. Why? Because that is God's clearly established pattern, a pattern based on His clearly established laws.

Adam and Eve, though married, were intended by God to be prototypical of all white men and women. Therefore what applied to them applies to all white people, married or not, just as the curses that resulted from the Fall apply to everybody; men are to be the leaders, are to have the rule, in and out of church.


Jesus reiterated what Yahweh established in the beginning: men and women were to carry out their commission in obedience to Yahweh as ONE. He rebuked husbands for having hard hearts and breaking apart what God had joined together as ONE:

Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:4-8)

Jesus was talking about the marriage relationship here, not church leadership. If, as you seem to believe, these verses prove that it's permissible for a woman to preach to men in church, then, by extension, only a married woman can do the preaching, since they apply only to marriage.


Yahweh commanded husbands and wives to be joined together as ONE in obedience to Him. There is a judgment for breaking the Law of one flesh obedience to Him:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16)

One of the curses established in the garden for Yahweh's women who violate His Law was that their husbands would rule over them. When Yahweh's people obey His One Flesh Law, they are not subject to the curse. When Israel obeys the Law, blessings follow. When Israel breaks the Law, curses come.

One of the resulting curses of Israel's disobedience is that women would rule over men. When women preach to men in church, they are ruling over them, for whoever is preaching a sermon in a church is in a position of authority while he or she is preaching that sermon.


When Paul wrote his epistles, he created a doctrine out of this curse in the garden. He called the curse a blessing by perverting it into a doctrine for the church to be subject to. The leaven of that doctrine has permeated the entire Kingdom of God.

Here we go again with the Paul-bashing! It's central to your thesis, isn't it? And it has to be because the only way you can attempt to make your arguments stick is to put a question mark over anything Paul wrote that stands in the way of your unscriptural belief that it's okay for women to preach to men in church. "Paul was a pharisee! Paul didn't receive his teaching from the mouth of Jesus! Paul's statement can't be supported by other Scripture!" It never ends.

Paul couldn't have made it plainer that the directives he gave in his epistles were God's commandments.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Paul's teachings were the same, regardless of where he taught, so they, whether seen as a whole or in part, cannot be dismissed as being relevant only to a particular assembly at a particular time.

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

The Apostle Peter made no bones about the fact that Paul's epistles were Divinely inspired.

2 Peter 3:14-17
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2:11-15)

Yahweh never said Adam was formed before Eve, and thereby men will have dominion over women henceforth forevermore.

Yahweh did indeed say it through Paul's writings, whose Divine inspiration was substantiated by Peter. Also, "dominion" would be better put as "loving authority" and it is not "forevermore". It only applies to us for as long as we are in these flesh and blood bodies.


Furthermore, women are not saved in childbearing. This is a lie against the doctrines of Jesus Christ. They are saved by believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ and receiving the remission of their sins in baptism, just like men are. The Lamb of God didn't discriminate against women when He took away the sins of the world. I can only imagine where Paul came up with this idea.

Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. If you deem Paul a liar, you deem the Holy Ghost a liar!

As for women being saved in childbearing, many Bible commentators believe that what Paul meant was that women would find fulfillment through motherhood rather than through assuming leadership roles in the Church. I think that is a very reasonable interpretation, one which dovetails perfectly with Paul's counsel on women


Jesus didn't have a problem with free-flowing hair because He didn't rebuke the woman for wiping her hair all over his feet in public. He always did and said what His Father commanded Him to. He never had a problem giving a public rebuke when needed. It's well-known that He had no problem with her hair because multiplied millions of people have read this chapter of the bible, as He knew they would.

Men were to pray and prophesy in church with their head uncovered. Women were to pray and prophesy in church with their head covered. The women were to do this as a sign of their submission to the God-ordained headship of men in general, and, if they were married, their husbands in particular. The woman who washed Christ's feet with uncovered hair wasn't in violation of this commandment, since, by her actions, she was submitting to Christ, Who was at that time present in the flesh, and was her headship and thus her covering. However, in church, where Christ, though present in the Spirit, has put men in charge, a woman's head ought to be covered, as it signifies her obedience to the authority of man, as well as the greater authority of Christ.


[Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him (2 John 1:9-10)

Does that also go for people who reject the doctrine of Christ that was given through Paul?

seedliner
08-10-2010, 06:51 AM
Does that also go for people who reject the doctrine of Christ that was given through Paul?

I know, what's with the recent Paul-bashing?

DunaMiss
08-11-2010, 12:48 AM
Here we go again with the Paul-bashing! It's central to your thesis, isn't it? And it has to be because the only way you can attempt to make your arguments stick is to put a question mark over anything Paul wrote that stands in the way of your unscriptural belief that it's okay for women to preach to men in church. "Paul was a pharisee! Paul didn't receive his teaching from the mouth of Jesus! Paul's statement can't be supported by other Scripture!" It never ends.
You’re right, Obadiah. Verifying that Paul overstepped his authority is central to my thesis. The doctrine of women being silent in the church and not preaching to men is Paul’s doctrine, doesn’t agree with Jesus’ doctrine, and has no confirmation in the Law, the Prophets, or the Psalms. If you’d like to discuss Paul further, please meet me at the new “The Controversial Paul” thread under “New Testament.” I’ve responded to your points over there.


I know, what's with the recent Paul-bashing?
It came to the surface with the recent surge in Pauline theology since my latest post about Dr. Comparet.

I believe Dr. Comparet was entirely in line with scripture when he gave his radio-pulpit to his wife, Inez Comparet, to give (a.k.a. preach) messages for the listening church, both men and women, to hear.

I haven’t said so yet, but I also believe that the Visser family is in agreement with scripture in letting women post messages on this forum-pulpit for the viewing church, both men and women, to read. Some of the posts around here are better sermons than you get in many so-called “Christian” churches, and the Vissers graciously let both men and women write (a.k.a. preach) them here.

Let it be known that I don’t disagree with everything Paul said. I agree with the things he wrote that line up with the doctrines of Jesus.

Obadiah 1:18
08-11-2010, 02:57 AM
You’re right, Obadiah. Verifying that Paul overstepped his authority is central to my thesis. The doctrine of women being silent in the church and not preaching to men is Paul’s doctrine, doesn’t agree with Jesus’ doctrine, and has no confirmation in the Law, the Prophets, or the Psalms. If you’d like to discuss Paul further, please meet me at the new “The Controversial Paul” thread under “New Testament.” I’ve responded to your points over there.

Just what this forum needs, DunaMiss, another thread in which you do your utmost to besmirch one of the greatest figures in the history of the Christian Church. As far as I'm concerned, you're a heretic who doesn't have a scriptural leg to stand on. So you can count me out of contributing in any way to this new paean to feminism of yours that you've started in the NT sub-forum. If people are ignorant enough to buy into your anti-Paul claptrap, that's their problem. The Bible gives dire warnings about taking away from the Word of God, which is exactly what you've been doing -- and, no doubt, will continue to do -- by undermining and casting aspersions on Paul's Spirit-anointed epistles or sections thereof.


I haven’t said so yet, but I also believe that the Visser family is in agreement with scripture in letting women post messages on this forum-pulpit for the viewing church, both men and women, to read. Some of the posts around here are better sermons than you get in many so-called “Christian” churches, and the Vissers graciously let both men and women write (a.k.a. preach) them here.

The last time I looked, this was a message board, an online discussion forum, not a church. Likening it to a literal Church pulpit is ridiculous, but then, so is your push to become the Joyce Meyers of Christian Identity.


Let it be known that I don’t disagree with everything Paul said. I agree with the things he wrote that line up with the doctrines of Jesus.

You disagree with anything that would prevent you from preaching the Word to men in church. If Peter and others had made similar points to Paul, you'd be attacking them, calling them liars, unrepentant pharisees, etc. as well. Paul isn't your problem, Church doctrine is.

Just out of curiosity, DunaMiss, are you Joy Reigns?

DunaMiss
08-11-2010, 03:19 AM
The last time I looked, this was a message board, an online discussion forum, not a church.
The church is not a building, it's the born again believers in Jesus Christ.


Just out of curiosity, DunaMiss, are you Joy Reigns?
No.

Solomon
08-11-2010, 08:43 AM
Well, that's what this is - a discussion board.

Interesting thread!

seedliner
12-06-2010, 05:50 PM
KINGDOM OF GOD VS WOMEN PREACHERS (http://www.thechristianidentityforum.net/smf/let-us-reason-together/the-kingdom-of-paul-vs-women-preachers/)
Aymon De Albatrus

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1Co 11:3)

"11 Let a woman learn in silence, in all subjection. 12 And I do not allow a woman to teach nor to exercise authority [over] a man, but to be in silence." (1Ti 2:11-12 LIT)

"34 ¶ Let your women be silent in the churches, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says. 35 But if they desire to learn anything, let them question their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church. 36 ¶ Or did the Word of God go out from you? Or did it reach only to you?" (1Co 14:34-36)

Let us start with the definition that: Preaching is Teaching is Governing.

TEACHER:

To teach or instruct; one whose business or occupation is to instruct others; an instructor; a tutor.

One who instructs others in religion; a preacher; a minister of the gospel; sometimes, one who preaches without regular ordination.

One involved in activities of educating or instructing or teaching; activities that impart knowledge or skill.

TEACH applies to any manner of imparting information or skill so that others may learn INSTRUCT suggests methodical or formal teaching

EDUCATE implies development of the mind

TRAIN stresses instruction and drill with a specific end in view

DISCIPLINE implies training in habits of order and precision.

PREACHER:

To urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action.

To proclaim or publish tidings; specifically, to proclaim the gospel; to discourse publicly on a religious subject or from a text of Scripture; to deliver a sermon.

To give serious advice on morals or religion, to discourse in the manner of a preacher.

To inculcate in public discourse, to urge with earnestness by public teaching.

To deliver or pronounce such as to preach a sermon.

To teach or instruct by preaching, to inform by preaching.

To advise or recommend earnestly a course of action.

We can easily see that Teaching and Preaching are essentially the same thing with the latter concentrating mostly on religious matters but with a lot of subjects overlapping.

Moreover Teaching/Preaching is also a form of governing for the audience is expected to put into practice the instruction received. Also the Teacher/Preacher has ascendancy over the audience for he is the giver and they are the receivers, in other words the Teacher/Preacher is in a position of superiority over the addressees for he is imparting instructions to them.

Immediately we see that if a woman Teaches/Preaches she is in a superior position to the audience and that is in clear and direct conflict with 1Co 11:3 and the others, above.

But let us develop the theme further.

What is the definition of the Kingdom of God? Our Lord Jesus has given many examples of the Kingdom but the essential one covering them all is this:

"The Kingdom of God is where His Sovereign will is carried out perfectly according to His commands and decrees".

At the moment this is so in Heaven, but here on the earth we are to pray: "And He (Jesus) said to them: When you pray, say, Our Father who is in Heaven, hallowed be Your name, let Your kingdom come, let Your will be done on earth as it also is in Heaven." (Luk 11:2)

To be sure, God is Sovereign and present all over His creation and this is not to be confused with the Kingdom of God where everything is done perfectly according to His will. God is all-powerful and has control over everything, there is nothing that exists and lives without His control, absolutely nothing. This earth although under the full control of God is not totally part of His Kingdom, as defined. His Kingdom on this earth is where the believers that do His will are, that is the true church. Anyone that say he is a believer should also do the will of God and not his own and be totally dedicated to: "But seek the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you." (Luk 12:31)

Anyone who says he is a believer but does things rather according to his own volition he is not seeking the Kingdom of God, but he is part of the world and has established his own personal kingdom. "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him," (1Jo 2:15)

We are called also to be perfect: "Therefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." (Mat 5:48) and to be perfect we must do the will of God to His glory, not our fancy notions. Thus it is not sufficient for anybody to says that he feel to be called to the ministry of preaching, amongst others, but this "calling" has to be tested, endorsed and substantiated by God’s rules, i.e. His Word, the Bible.

The best thing to do to ever understand well anything and to develop a solid basis is to start at the beginning: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;" (Gen 1:1). This statement sets the scene parameters in that it categorically states that "at the beginning GOD" there was nothing except God and that all the subsequent events have their beginning and reason to exist in God and in nothing else. This means that all our reasoning and actions must have their being in God and must be according to His will to be real: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; ….." (Act 17:28). Anything that is not in conformity with His dictates, the Bible, is false and has to be rejected.

The principles of living in the Kingdom of God begin in Genesis chapter one and end in Revelation and we do well to stick closely to them. In Genesis we see that the Lord created man for His purposes as the image and glory of God. After a while God says to Himself: "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Gen 2:18). From that we gather that Adam was in need of a companion as his helper. Now a helper is not equal or superior to the one he helps as per the definition: "One that helps; an assistant". Moreover, Adam’s helper was extracted from Adam and therefore a derivate of Him, which by the logic of things makes the helper subservient to its source. And this is the first principle of the man’s ascendancy over the woman: "For Adam was first formed, then Eve." (1Ti 2:13).

Secondly, soon after her creation we see that in the Garden of Eden the Devil deceived her. This was not true for Adam. He sinned, but he was not deceived. Eve driven by the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life had allowed herself to be mislead and fell into disobedience and for that she received a specific punishment: "To the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you." (Gen 3:16) And here is the second reason for woman to be in subjection to the man: "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1Ti 2:14)

Thus this is the beginning and by the principle of the "first appearance" all discussion and reference on the roles of man and woman must by necessity refer to here:

Man was created first and as the image and glory of God whilst the woman (the derivative) was made as the glory of man" 1Co 11:7.

Moreover the woman was deceived by the Evil one and fell into transgression whilst the man was not deceived.

These two statements absolutely preclude woman to ever have any authority over the man, in any possible field, whether in the Church or in the World, for all is of God. If any woman goes against these declarations, she is expressedly going against the clear dictates of God and she is an avowed rebel and one day she will have to render an account to God for her rebellion.

Of course Leftists, Libertines, Modernists and Liberals do all they can to dismiss the first three chapters of Genesis as mythological and irrelevant to our modern enlightened days for we have advanced so much and the catch phrases are like: "surely in the 21th century you do not believe such fairy tales?" But the crux of the matter is that if the first 3 chapters of Genesis are removed, then the whole Bible would make no sense at all, and this is really what they want to do, to dispose of the Bible for It proclaims a God that limits their desire to revel in their debauchery.

Anyone that does not take the first 3 chapters of Genesis as true and does not believe that Adam and Eve were real persons; he is no Christian at all.

Indeed a prominent woman televangelist flatly rejects the Bible verses that forbid any woman from teaching or exercising authority over a man such as: 1Ti 2:12. But of course she has to, otherwise she would be a total hypocrite.

In these latter evil days we are bombarded from all sides by all sorts of new ideas. The unbelievable suggestion of yesterday, entertained only by a few fanatics, is today the bold reform, and tomorrow will be the accepted practice. Novelties are so numerous and so wild and rash, that in even conservative minds the feeling of wonder is exhausted and the instinct of righteous resistance fatigued, if not lost altogether. Just a few years ago the preaching women were universally condemned among all conservative denominations of Christians. Now the idea is being presented to the churches, and female preachers are knocking at our doors. We are already told that public opinion is being swayed because of the boldness and reasonableness of the claims of these woman preachers that even our own ministers are hesitant to speak out against the movement. Only in the U.S. women preachers number over 20 thousands.

But how all this spiritual rot came to be?

The apostasy of the hour came when men and women having rejected Bible truth, are confused about the most basic things. Many men are trying to be like women in dress and manner, while many women are demanding the right to be like men, to dress like men, to do the same work as men, to play the same sports as men, to fight in armies like men. They want more than equal pay for equal work; they are demanding a man’s place in the home, church, and state. Sadly, the church is always affected by society. Thus the rebellion of women in the world is causing similar problems in the churches, and we find women demanding leadership roles in many Christian, if not all of them.

The first sign of this "Downgrade" appeared during the lifetime of that "Prince of preachers" Charles Haddon Spurgeon and he firstly coined the correct phrase "Downgrade". In his own words: "At the end of the Puritan age, by some means or other, first the ministers, then the Churches, got on "the down grade," and in some cases, the descent was rapid, and in all, very disastrous. In proportion as the ministers seceded from the old Puritan godliness of life, and the old Calvinistic form of doctrine, they commonly became less earnest and less simple in their preaching, more speculative and less spiritual in the matter of their discourses, and dwelt more on the moral teachings of the New Testament, than on the great central truths of revelation. Natural theology frequently took the place, which the great truths of the gospel ought to have held, and the sermons became more and more Christless. Corresponding results in the character and life, first of the preachers and then of the people, were only too plainly apparent."

It is interesting to note some dates:

Charles Darwin (1809 – 1882

Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892)

"The Origin of Species" published November 24 1859. This is the official start of that most ungodly Theory of Evolution that in effects supplants God in the minds of many.

Revised New Version published in 1881. This version was guided by two unbelievers, Westcott and Hort; that rejected the Textus Receptus for the corrupted version of Origen. Indeed in 1890 Mar. 4th – Westcott admitted his disbelief in the fundamental basis of the Bible and did not believe that Genesis 1-3 should be taken literally: "No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history - I could never understand how any one reading them with open eyes could think they did - yet they disclose to us a Gospel. Interesting to note that Jesus, Paul and the Apostles frequently referred to those.

Interesting how all these factors coincided with that early breakdown in Christianity. That was known as the ‘Downgrade controversy’. There were two aspects to this development. Firstly, the publication in 1859 of Charles Darwin’s ‘On the Origin of Species’ and in 1871 of ‘The Descent of Man’, had had an enormous influence on many thinking people and there was a widespread and growing conviction that the Scriptures were no longer a reliable basis for belief in our creational beginnings and the theory of Evolution appealed very much to the carnal side of man for in effect it did away with God. Parallel with this was the growth of what was called "higher criticism" of the Bible. Scholars were examining the text of the Scriptures, not with the eye of faith nor by the aid of the Spirit, but with a secular mind that questioned its authorship as well as the veracity of long–held understandings and interpretations "Has God said?". As a result of their pronouncements, many people felt they could no longer adhere to the traditional views of the Bible.

Listen to Spurgeon’s own words of warning: "Biblical truth is like the pinnacle of a steep, slippery mountain. One step away, you find yourself on the downgrade. Once a church or individual Christian gets on the downgrade, momentum takes over. Recovery is unusual and only happens when Christians get on the 'up-line' through spiritual revival." As one very well respected pastor has insightfully noted, "Christians today tend to forget that modernism was not first of all a theological agenda, but a methodological one." Spurgeon was right and this is exactly what we are facing today.

Nevertheless Spurgeon faithfully stuck with the truth of God: "The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach today, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine.’’

And so we "the seven thousand left" must go on to preach that old truth to our last gulp of air.

And so from the second half of the 1800 the Downgrade it was truly down hill slide, especially sustained by the 2 World Wars, with WWII fuelling to no end the secularisation of society with the aid of that satanically devised Democracy system and its daughter, Feminism.

To make the point, it is estimated that today in England, that bulwark of Christianity that sent million of missionaries all over the world, only less than 4% of the population attends church regularly, and decreasing fast. In Europe the situation is even worse. The writers of the New EU constitution steadfastly refused to even introduce a statement in it saying that Europe had its roots in Christianity, let alone stating that we live under God.

And from here the thousands of women preachers were spawned. Firstly with that theory of Evolution the Bible was rejected as the source of inerrant divine guide, then Democracy has made everyone equal reducing God's ordinances for His creation null and void. (if this were at all possible)

As Spurgeon cried with deep insight: "Once a church or individual Christian gets on the downgrade, momentum takes over, recovery is unusual." And there our modern church is found falling away in profound decadency with most churches having "ICHABOD" written on their doors.

The issue of Women Preachers is just one of the symptoms of this malaise of the church and so from all sides the word now used is "Post Christian Era". But here we are dealing with this "cancer" of women preachers in the church. The Bible speaks too clearly on this subject for there to be any confusion. The problem is that churches too often are looking to sources other than the Bible for guidance; indeed they are fully steeped in the tenets of secularism. God loves women as much as He does men. Women are as important to the home, church, and society as men are. In Jesus Christ, women enjoy the same access to salvation and blessings before God as men do. This does not mean, though, there is no difference in men and women in their appearance and roles. There is a basic truth, which needs to be restated in the church and society today: Men and women are different and are not interchangeable!

Men and women were made for different roles. The New Testament affirms that men are to be the leaders in the home, church, and state. Women were not created to rule these divine institutions; men were. The prophet Isaiah was condemning Israel when he said women ruled over them (Isa 3:12). In the church (and in society), according to the Bible, no woman is qualified to be a pastor or a deacon or in any other leadership position over men for the simple fact that God has made her a woman. Who says that? God says!

"Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. But I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, was in the transgression" (1Ti 2:11-14).

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1Co 14:34-37).

How could a woman possibly be a preacher when she is forbidden to teach or to have any authority over men? Women can only be preachers if they openly disobey the Bible’s teaching. Note, furthermore: "if they will learn any thing" which further strengthen the fact that they cannot teach.

Further, the Lord Jesus Christ appointed no female apostles, nor He personally instructed women. All of them were men. The standards for pastors apply strictly to men. Only a man can be the "husband of one wife" and can "rule his own house well" (1Ti 3:2,4; Tit 1:6).

PAUL’S INSTRUCTIONS ARE FOR ALL CHURCHES OF ALL CENTURIES

Some are saying that the commands quoted above were meant only for first century Christians, or were only for the particular situation at Corinth. This cannot be true for many reasons. Consider:

The Epistles of Paul are taken by all as God inspired Scripture and thus his instructions in 1 Corinthians 14 are the commandments of the Lord (verse 37). As such they must be obeyed by all Christians and by every church in all times.

The Apostle said that the instructions of 1 Corinthians 14 are a test of spirituality. He said that those who are truly spiritual must acknowledge that the instructions are the very commandments of God. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1Co 14:37).

In 1 Timothy the Apostle gives the very same instructions concerning women, and this epistle was said to have been written to teach the proper order for churches. The things contained in 1 Timothy are specific instructions about church order to be obeyed by all churches in every century; and it is in this book, the book that contains standards for church leaders, that God has forbidden women from taking authority over or teaching men.

In giving the instructions about women in the church, the Holy Spirit referred back to the original order of creation (the first 3 chapters of Genesis), Adam first, then Eve. The Holy Spirit, in guiding Paul’s pen, used this order of creation to prove that women must not take authority over men. Therefore, since the order of creation has not changed since 1 Timothy was written, and since it does not change in our culture or century, we know that the instructions of the New Testament about the woman’s role in the church apply to us today and tomorrow.

Paul referred to the Fall for support of his teaching regarding the woman’s subjection to the man. "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1Ti 2:14). Again this shows that the Apostle’s teaching about the woman transcends any one culture or generation, remember that Paul war writing in the New Testament. Though we have been saved from the eternal consequences of the Fall when we receive the Lord Jesus Christ, we are still living under the abiding consequences and conditions of the Fall as long as we remain in this world.

Redemption has three aspects that must never be confused: past, present, and future. The three are seen in Romans chapter eight. Romans 8:1-10 speaks of the past aspect of our salvation--we have been saved from the eternal consequences of sin. Because of what Jesus Christ has done for us on the Cross we have been made eternally free from any fear of the wrath of God or punishment for our sin by God’s holy law. Praise the Lord! Rom 8:11-17 speaks of the present aspect of our salvation: we are being saved from the power of sin in our daily lives by the Spirit of God who indwells us. Rom 8:18-25 speaks of the future aspect of salvation: we will be saved from the very presence of sin when Christ gives us our resurrection body and comes to renew this fallen creation. We have eternal redemption right now as a present possession, yet we still "groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Romans 8:23).

Likewise, the woman who trusts Christ receives eternal freedom in Him from the wages of sin, but she is not yet free from some of the consequences of Eve’s rebellion in the Garden of Eden. She still is to be in subjection to the man.

Paul referred to human nature to support his teaching regarding women. "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1Ti 2:14). The woman has a different makeup than the man. She was designed for a different role in life than that of the man; that of a wife and mother. Her emotional, psychological, and rational makeup is geared perfectly for this, but she was not designed for leadership. In the Garden of Eden the devil deceived her. This was not true for Adam. He sinned, but he was not deceived. Eve had allowed herself to be in a position of decision-making she was not supposed to occupy and she fell prey to the evil one. It is no coincidence that women have been responsible for starting many of the false "christian" movements and have played key roles in spiritism, new age, mind science cults, and other satanic activities. Human nature has not changed and neither has God’s restrictions against women preachers.

Paul commanded that his instructions were to be kept until Christ’s coming. "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Ti 6:14). This command is given at the end of the epistle in which the Apostle had so clearly required that women be in subjection to men(1Ti 2:9-15). Since Jesus has not yet appeared, we are to continue to maintain these restrictions. Not forgetting Jesus’ words apropos: "For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Mat 5:18)

Paul’s letter to Corinth, in which he spoke of women being in subjection to men, was for all Christians, not just those in Corinth. In his introduction to this epistle the Apostle tells us plainly to whom he is speaking: "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their’s and our’s" (1Co 1:2). It is clear that Paul’s instructions were not intended merely for some peculiar situation at Corinth.

While Galatians 3:28 says there is neither bond nor free in Christ, other passages teach that this does not mean there are no servant/master relationships. The Christian servant is free in Christ--free from the eternal wages of sin--but he is not free from his earthly position and responsibilities of servitude toward his master (Eph 6:5-8; Col 3:22-25; 1Ti 6:1,2; Tit 2:9-10; 1Pe 2:18-25). In fact, anyone who teaches against these instructions regarding submission of servants to masters is labelled proud and evil: "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. if any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself" (1 Timothy 6:1-5).

These are strong words, and they refer directly to those who try to contradict the Apostle’s teaching requiring subjection of servants to masters, such as those who promote communistic "liberation theology," and those who stir up all sorts of strife between workers and business. These words also apply to those who are trying to throw off the apostolic teaching referring to woman’s subjection to man in the church and home and outside. Such are proud, ungodly, and destitute of the truth, and are to be separated from! We can see how serious this matter is in front of God.

Galatians 3:28 says there are no servants and no freemen in Christ, yet other New Testament passages teach there are indeed Christians who are servants and Christians who are masters. Galatians 3:28 also says there is neither male nor female in Christ, but other passages show us that this does not mean all distinction between the sexes are done away in this world, nor does it mean that the original order of creation has been dissolved in Christianity. Gal 3:28 refers to the fact that ALL have access to salvation in Christ not to the dismissal of hierarchical order in human relationships as prescribed by the Word of God (1Co 11:3).

In Conclusion:

1. To understand fully any Biblical principle we must go to the beginning and any further discussion on the matter must refer to that, i.e. the principle of first appearance.

2. The Biblical directives are not bound to a specific time or a specific culture, but are universal for all times and all cultures for they are God breathed and God is not bound by anything and He knows the beginning from the end. Besides if the Biblical principles were bound to a specific time or culture, they would be useless to future generations, the very thing that satanically inspired democratic culture wants to implement.

3. The first three chapters of the Bible must to be accepted and believed as literal and Adam and Eve as real persons the first humans ever created and that no other humans were in the Garden, besides them. Failing to accept that pulls the rug under the Bible effectively destroying the whole Good News of Christ and His redemptive work.

4. In the first 3 chapters of the Bible we have the foundation of the whole human drama and its hierarchical order where the man was created as the pre-eminent human and the woman was added by extraction from the man as subservient suitable helper for him. "8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (1Co 11:8-9) The man is the head, not the woman.

5. Throughout the Bible we have passages that confirm that all distinctions between the sexes are NOT done away in this world, proving that the original order of creation has NOT been dissolved in Christianity but it is valid to the end of times.

6. The Lord Jesus Christ appointed no female apostles, nor He personally instructed women. All of them were men. The standards for pastors apply strictly to men. Only a man can be the "husband of one wife" and can "rule his own house well" (1Ti 3:2,4; Tit 1:6)

7. Women Preachers are a "cancer" to Christianity and are not part of the Kingdom of God. This concept is satanically inspired to dilute sound doctrine and to make Christianity fall into disuse as we so plainly see all over the world in these evil days.

BootGurl88
01-07-2011, 12:08 AM
God made each one of us with a beautiful purpose in mind. He created man and woman to be united someday as one. They are to be joined together in marriage, love one another, share life, bear their children and thus make a family.

Marriage has been cheapened, scoffed at and made to look anything but desireable. But, that is still God's plan. Not "living together." Not to be haphazardly jumped into but done God's way.

God does have a plan - a perfect will - just for you, and it includes whom you should marry.

Most of the misguided information being thrown out there about marriage is coming from frustrated failures themselves.

Mistakes can be made, but a marriage put together by God and with Him at the center of it can be beautiful and fulfilling. Even though I am still single, I know this because that was how my grandmother's and grandfather's marriage was based.

Don't be in a hurry. Wait. Pray. Trust God and set your goals and standards high. You won't be sorry! Do it the way the world says and you probably will be sorry.


Hebrews 13:4 - "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

Matthew 19:6 - "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Ephesians 5:21-22 - "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."

Ephesians 5:25 - "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;"

Ephesians 5:28 - "So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself."

Ephesians 5:31 - "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."

Ephesians 5:33 - "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Bear in mind, if you run with the wrong crowd, you'll marry someone from the the wrong crowd. And if you travel with the right crowd, you'll probably wind you marrying someone from the right crowd.

Obadiah 1:18
01-07-2011, 02:20 AM
The Bible states that He who finds a wife [or a husband] finds a good thing (Proverbs 18:22), and that God will withhold no good thing from those who walk uprightly (84:11). Obeying His Word and believing (and earnestly expecting) that He will provide you with a mate are the keys to meeting the right mate. A meeting that God Himself will arrange.

Paul Vargio
01-07-2011, 07:56 PM
http://forbiddenfruitjam.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/marriage-divorce-remarriage-evil/

A quick read of this study will help you know about marriage and what makes a woman an adulteress.

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